facing a river shove with nut straight

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facing a river shove with nut straight

Postby henrywwy » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:13 am

#Game No : 436915216
***** Cassava Hand History for Game 436915216 *****
$125/$250 Blinds No Limit Holdem - ***
Tournament #43025970 $20 + $2 - Table #45 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: Dam1anov86 ( $3,412 )
Seat 2: st_ives ( $3,118 )
Seat 3: loreggio ( $6,839 )
Seat 4: poker_mom74 ( $18,702 )
Seat 5: gazpeSRB ( $8,302 )
Seat 6: 1789 ( $11,084 )
Seat 7: tiilted111 ( $5,755 )
Seat 9: magicdave2 ( $2,658 )
Seat 10: LOSER ( $9,707 )
1789 posts ante [$25]
magicdave2 posts ante [$25]
loreggio posts ante [$25]
poker_mom74 posts ante [$25]
BB8BB posts ante [$25]
gazpeSRB posts ante [$25]
tiilted111 posts ante [$25]
st_ives posts ante [$25]
Dam1anov86 posts ante [$25]
magicdave2 posts small blind [$125]
LOSER posts big blind [$250]
** Dealing down cards **
Dam1anov86 folds
st_ives folds
loreggio folds
poker_mom74 folds
gazpeSRB calls [$250]
1789 calls [$250]
tiilted111 calls [$250]
magicdave2 folds
LOSER checks
** Dealing flop ** [ Ks, 8d, 6c ]
LOSER bets [$675]
gazpeSRB folds
1789 calls [$675]
tiilted111 folds
** Dealing turn ** [ 4d ]
LOSER bets [$850]
1789 calls [$850]
** Dealing river ** [ 2d ]
LOSER bets [$1,700]
1789 raises [$9,284]

would u call?
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Re: facing a river shove with nut straight

Postby MJFX » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:33 am

You have 57?
Either flush or weirdly play set or 57.
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Re: facing a river shove with nut straight

Postby henrywwy » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:28 am

yeap 57. jst realised it doesnt show the hole card. fold?
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Re: facing a river shove with nut straight

Postby MJFX » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:27 pm

I will fold more often than not at the river.

I will try to think ahead before acting each street.
1. What hes calling with on the flop, clearly he has something, what is that something?
(Maybe TPGK, str draw, rmb its 4 way limp and u led the flop)
2. Turn - why he just called?
3. River - why the over the top raise? If he has just something, its a call. ( includes TP, 2 pairs or set), 2 pairs or set, you might have heard from him earlier.
Maybe busted straight draw 97, or 57? So u calling to chop.. But u have the 7 blocker.

All in all, Kx suited makes sense here, turn a flush draw.
He went max value there, knowing u either have it or nothing since u bet all 3 streets.

But if hes a donk and u know he doesnt know what hes doing, then call.

I think this article might help.
http://www.thinkingpoker.net/articles/s ... 3-thinker/
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Re: facing a river shove with nut straight

Postby AceisGoood » Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:13 am

Hello,

Just wanted to add in some inputs and I hope you don't think I am teaching you 'how to play'. Not the intention here.
Firstly, I agree, you can't call this bet, especially with tournament life on the line.
Secondly, I think you made a couple of moves earlier which resulted in this outcome.

Pre-flop was all calls and check, no raisers.

Flop came King high board. What were you doing betting half the pot when all you have is a straight draw now that we know ur hole card is 5-7.
Should have just checked, if he bet and at the right odds, worth the call. If not, fold it. Wait for a better hand, you didn't lose money there cause you were already BB. Suppose you bet out half pot like you did and he raised, you almost folding 90% of the time cause he would be representing at least King Rags or maybe lucky with a bottom set or what not. So you just contributed $675 for nothing. Position is power in poker.

Secondly, the best card you can hit on the turn. So continuing on your actual play after getting called with $675 (your first bet was about half pot and he called with odds of about 1-3 (25% ) To be honest, those are still ok odds to call and there's implied odds if he hit the flush and he has position on you. Its worthwhile call to him...) So back to turn bet, you this time bet out $850 and mathematically you gave him even better odds this time round as he needs to call $850 into $3550, so he is putting in 19% to a pot of S$4400. GREAT ODDS. You should have bet way bigger (3/4 or pot sized). Could have taken down that pot right there, not bad work considering preflop was just a BB and you were perhaps way behind on the flop (assuming he has at least a made pair).

River comes, he hits his hand. Your river bet was actually a nice value bet, trying to get paid off, but a shove there... Can't call mate. I hope you didn't call that.

But if whatever I typed actually made sense to you, I think that's great cause then in the future, you would likely not make the same moves again resulting in the same result. Actually the bet on the flop is still ok, BUT the bet on turn was bad. You were scared you were going to lose him... Don't be. If he is a donk, you will get your money as he will call at lousy odds. Better to win a small pot than lose a big pot.

Just my two cents worth.
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Re: facing a river shove with nut straight

Postby henrywwy » Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:53 pm

nah im glad to hear ur opinion. thanks for the input. appreciate it.
Jst to clarify, theres no flush draw for him on the flop. he picked up the flush draw on the turn. Mayb i shud bet bigger on the turn but doubt the villain will be folding. Unfortunately, i called and he had A5 Diamonds.U guys think it is an easy fold? difficult to put him on a flush with the shove. anymore opinion?
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Re: facing a river shove with nut straight

Postby AceisGoood » Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:48 pm

Henry,

Yeap, he has no flush draw on the flop. The reason he is calling is because the bet on flop is too small, he is either putting you on nothing, or a king rag or even middle pair. Technically in his opinion the bet on flop is still small enough to see one more card (while I do not thinking calling would be a good move if I were him, you must understand he is also deep enough) because if you have nothing, he is still ahead... If you had king rag, he can still spike an ace and win.

I still maintained that you should not have bet the flop. Or if you really want to bet that flop, bet out big cause it shows confidence (but still hard to project given the pre-flop check from you, unless you are delibrately trapping). Notice also by betting out and first to act, you have 3 more to act behind you, in this case you were lucky to have chased two away with just a half pot bet. If more called, and you didn't spike your straight, you basically gave money away.

The other point of why betting bigger on the flop is so that when he called, you would really put him on the KING at least since he called a big bet. I am sure your psyche at the time when you hit your turn would be to bet big because you know he can call, as you think he might be strong, at least a King, or some set. In that situation, you are really giving him unfavorables odds and if he call, he is technically totally pot committed (as bigger bet in flop, results in even bigger bet in turn). I don't think he can make that call (unless he is really a donk), and you can take down the pot (which is not too bad since you value added your hand already with a bigger bet on flop). Notice that because your aggression was somewhat subdued, he could see all the way to the river by spending approximately 1.5k more which is a small amount if you compared to bigger bet sizes. It would be a total of 1k (flop bet approximately 75% of pot) + 2.6k (turn bet approximately 75% of pot) = 3.6k for him to see the river on top of all the investment preflop.

So Henry, now that you see he needs to pay 2.1k more to see the river card would you still maintain that you "doubt the villian will be folding"? If you still think so, then this villian is obviously a calling station and a donk. Calling stations and Donks don't go all in at the river after aggression (from you) with nothing. Obviously, he would have the best hand. In that case you have to say wow, what an idiot, gave u shit odds still gambled and hit your hand. Take note and exploit that next time :)

My point here in the second reply is I hope you understand ABSOLUTELY that this is no bad beat or luck, you still made some plays which weren't the best course of action you could have taken. If you did cover those leaks and those still happened, then you can attribute it to luck and bad beat. Obviously when I say things like this, its much easier with clarity of mind, no pressure and I might have done what you have done as well... more importantly is to know what went wrong first with our play, then blame the poker gods for fucking the right plays up...
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