Govt moves to curb remote gambling in Singapore

Anything poker-related, and which doesn't fit into other forum categories

Re: Govt moves to curb remote gambling in Singapore

Postby blackchilli » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:50 pm

Anyone has any idea about what is happening now with regards to the law?

Frankly I'm extremely pissed that this is happening as I'm losing a side-income stream. I urge everyone in this forum to appeal via the reach website and let them know what we think. Yes, this may seem like an impossible battle but now is not the time to shoot each other down and say "the situation is hopeless". The reach website can be accessed here.

https://www.reach.gov.sg/YourSay/EConsu ... Paper.aspx
(scroll down to 'Proposed Framework to Restrict Remote Gambling)

I suggest that we appeal in the following order.

1) Let them know that online poker is more similar to stock trading as opposed to blackjack and roulette. Simply put, it isn't a -ev game so long as you're smarter than the next guy. I know of several players who built their way up from $50 and consistently earn $40k - $200k a year over 200k hands etc. This CANNOT be done by traditional gambling games like blackjack, roulette or 4d. I myself earn a consistent 1k a month as a side income with a one time deposit of $50 4 years ago.

2) Let them know that we are willing to pay taxes if it has to be done. If it must be taxed, so be it.

3) If the major pokersites must be blocked off, fine. We can at least appeal to the government and ask that poker be included in the Singapore Pools website that they are developing. This could be very beneficial for us in the long run.

We have another 9 days before they close off the Reach Public Consultation. If we make a united stand it may work especially with regards to point number 3.

- Nick Singh
(blackhilli on 2p2)
User avatar
blackchilli
ABC Poker Player
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:10 am

Re: Govt moves to curb remote gambling in Singapore

Postby NOTNobody » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:40 am

blackchilli wrote:Anyone has any idea about what is happening now with regards to the law?

Frankly I'm extremely pissed that this is happening as I'm losing a side-income stream. I urge everyone in this forum to appeal via the reach website and let them know what we think. Yes, this may seem like an impossible battle but now is not the time to shoot each other down and say "the situation is hopeless". The reach website can be accessed here.

https://www.reach.gov.sg/YourSay/EConsu ... Paper.aspx
(scroll down to 'Proposed Framework to Restrict Remote Gambling)

I suggest that we appeal in the following order.

1) Let them know that online poker is more similar to stock trading as opposed to blackjack and roulette. Simply put, it isn't a -ev game so long as you're smarter than the next guy. I know of several players who built their way up from $50 and consistently earn $40k - $200k a year over 200k hands etc. This CANNOT be done by traditional gambling games like blackjack, roulette or 4d. I myself earn a consistent 1k a month as a side income with a one time deposit of $50 4 years ago.

I agree with you that poker requires a lot more skills than traditional gambling where the odds are against you in the long run. However, the game of blackjack is a little different than other games. Just like how there are professional poker players who're living the Vegas lifestyle, there are also professional blackjack players who're winning the house most of the time. The only difference is poker players receive recognition for outwitting fellow poker players, blackjack players get into the Casino's Bingo Book for winning too consistently. Sorry for digressing too much, but just like how we hope people perceive poker in a better light, we also shouldn't be too judgmental about other possible skill-base games (Blackjack is one of them) offered by the casinos.

2) Let them know that we are willing to pay taxes if it has to be done. If it must be taxed, so be it.

To be brutally honest, I don't like this door-in-the-face technique our government is using.

By first, threatening to ban the game, winning online players will be forced to agree to be taxed in order to legalize playing it. But most of us always compare playing poker with investment. If tax kicks in, combine with the rakes and the occasional long downswings for anyone playing a lot of hands, how can poker even be +EV anymore?

If new players decides against playing the game because their rare winnings have to suffer the rakes of poker rooms and the tax of government, it will make it harder for anyone to enter.

I am definitely against tax unless the government recognizes the profession of Poker Pros. Not just because we want to play, then we agree to any outrageous regulations. To keep it as a profession, we got to command the respect of others. Not to beg for it to be legalized, but to educate the authorities about why it is legal.


3) If the major pokersites must be blocked off, fine. We can at least appeal to the government and ask that poker be included in the Singapore Pools website that they are developing. This could be very beneficial for us in the long run.

Again, I might have to disagree with this point. I don't see why is there a need to block off a major site if the authorities deem poker as legal enough to be included in Singapore Pools website. And I don't see how it could be beneficial at all. This is just like China banning Google and essentially alienating China from the rest of the world.

Poker is a niche, if we're only allowed to play Poker on Singapore Pools website, I am sorry to say that it is not profitable for Singapore Pools because the player pool in Singapore is just not huge enough. It is also not profitable for online Cash/SNG/Tourney regular players because it will take a very long time before games filled up.


We have another 9 days before they close off the Reach Public Consultation. If we make a united stand it may work especially with regards to point number 3.

- Nick Singh
(blackhilli on 2p2)


I am definitely pissed off as well. Poker is one of those games where your age, gender, race, language, religion, nationality, bmi, occupation, education level, marital status, wealth, fame, experience doesn't dictates how well you fare in a single session. The worst player in the world can still flopped the best possible hand (straight/royal flush). But it takes a little skill to get your opponent to pay him/her off.

If the authorities recognizes this skill we're always on about, we might be able to get them to change their mind about whether to demonize or legalize poker. Just because they don't understand it, doesn't mean they should criminalize us.

If the authorities' goal is solely to prevent degenerates from being addicted to the game, fearing people may commit crimes in order to feed their addiction, then the idea isn't to shut them out. But to recruit Poker Pros, to set up training centers to train aspiring poker players. In a controlled environment, with the support of your fellow poker players and coaches, any unwanted behaviors will be stamped out immediately. With proper bankroll management, nobody will need to cheat/rob/scam/steal, since we can already bluff/steal in the game.

*** If our ministers are as open minded as some others, perhaps allowing them to observe a game of poker will change their minds. In fact, we can even let our ministers arrange the cards so that they can pick a winner. Chances are, that winner they picked may not survive till showdown. Then we can slowly explain the "why" and "how".
NOTNobody
New Fish
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:40 pm

Re: Govt moves to curb remote gambling in Singapore

Postby vaevictis » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:23 am

Don't be stupid.

The government don't care about the skills involved in poker. They are smart and they understand it is a skilled game.
The government cares about it's coffers. Tax.

They will legalise it if there are avenues for them to benefit. A value proposal will be a great paper depicting how this can be done, including an online domain and potential market that can be derived from this.

Key considerations for paper:
1) market cap for poker players
2) potential business derived
3) regulation of online poker
4) taxation rules
5) limitations (moral hazards)

imho, this is a done and dusted deal. The government will be regulating heavily and banning it. You can try, but its a tough way ahead.
vaevictis
Challenge Poker Player
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:46 pm

Re: Govt moves to curb remote gambling in Singapore

Postby NOTNobody » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:47 pm

At this day and age, there is no need to even spell out what the government really wants with their new policies. That's why it is appropriate to be oblivious to it.

I maintained the notion that Poker is a skilled game. Even if online poker is banned, by maintaining our stance that it is a skilled game, we will have a chance to overthrow this ban in the future.

At least that's what the government is on about. That poker is highly addictive and easily accessible to internet-savvy youth. By lumping something addictive and involves money as gambling, they will get support from the mainstream society.

The misconception of poker is prevalent. That's why it is so easy to champion a move to curb online gambling and lumping poker into that term. Dividing us into a majority of the mainstream people who don't understand the game, and a minority of us who understand it a little more than others.

Along with the fact that most online players keep it hush-hush about what they're doing online. The people around them don't know what they're doing. When they eventually finds out, it will be easier for them to misunderstand. Unless you actually win a lot of your sessions for them to see the pros of it, otherwise, they will only think about the cons.

It's not what we say we are. It's what the public wants to see us as.
NOTNobody
New Fish
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:40 pm

Pokerkaki Ads

Postby Pokerkaki Ads

Pokerkaki Ads
Shameless Advertising to keep this site alive

Re: Govt moves to curb remote gambling in Singapore

Postby Brasstal » Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:29 pm

Dear Kakis,

Happy New Year to all of you.

All I can say is I have done what has/could be done (from my end) and the matter is not in my hands anymore. Unfortunately I have been advised not to discuss these with anyone.

I do agree with kakis however who choose to make their points known via the public consultation forums etc. They are there precisely .. to hear us out. I hope they actually listen.

Wishing all of you a Happy Blessed New Year.
User avatar
Brasstal
Team PokerStar Asia
 
Posts: 556
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:51 pm
Medals: 11
Genting Poker Tournament (1) Macau Cup Participant (2) APPT Participant (1) RPT Participant (1) FPT Participant (1) WSOP Participant (1) Crowned a poker tournament (1) 3rd Place in a poker tourny (1) Helpful Kaki (1)
Good Seller (1)

Re: Govt moves to curb remote gambling in Singapore

Postby pokerace » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:17 pm

[quote="Brasstal"]Dear Kakis,

Happy New Year to all of you.
Unfortunately I have been advised not to discuss these with anyone.

Seems our pro also asked to be silent!
What can our casual player do?
So more or less,kaki will guess what type of outcome it is,Lol!
pokerace
Challenge Poker Player
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:31 pm
Medals: 2
Chatterbox - Bigga Mouth~ (1) Helpful Kaki (1)

Re: Govt moves to curb remote gambling in Singapore

Postby vaevictis » Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:44 pm

NOTNobody wrote:At this day and age, there is no need to even spell out what the government really wants with their new policies. That's why it is appropriate to be oblivious to it.

I maintained the notion that Poker is a skilled game. Even if online poker is banned, by maintaining our stance that it is a skilled game, we will have a chance to overthrow this ban in the future.

At least that's what the government is on about. That poker is highly addictive and easily accessible to internet-savvy youth. By lumping something addictive and involves money as gambling, they will get support from the mainstream society.

The misconception of poker is prevalent. That's why it is so easy to champion a move to curb online gambling and lumping poker into that term. Dividing us into a majority of the mainstream people who don't understand the game, and a minority of us who understand it a little more than others.

Along with the fact that most online players keep it hush-hush about what they're doing online. The people around them don't know what they're doing. When they eventually finds out, it will be easier for them to misunderstand. Unless you actually win a lot of your sessions for them to see the pros of it, otherwise, they will only think about the cons.

It's not what we say we are. It's what the public wants to see us as.


The govt is banning poker not because they don't know its a skilled game. Be clear on the distinction. If this is the case, there should be way more games banned in casinos because they are simply games of chance.

Its abt getting their fair share of the cake. The online industry prevents them from doing that. Proper tracking of capital gains is almost impossible to regulate. If they can't do anything, the simplest way is to ban it outright. No amount of persuasion that it is a skilled game will change that, because they are not banning it on that front. They politicize it as gambling and its bad for the public, and garner support thru that. People in parliament are smart, they know what are games of chances and what are games of skills. Don't need you to educate them on that.

This is politics 101.
Last edited by vaevictis on Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
vaevictis
Challenge Poker Player
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:46 pm

Re: Govt moves to curb remote gambling in Singapore

Postby vaevictis » Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:45 pm

Brasstal wrote:Dear Kakis,

Happy New Year to all of you.

All I can say is I have done what has/could be done (from my end) and the matter is not in my hands anymore. Unfortunately I have been advised not to discuss these with anyone.

I do agree with kakis however who choose to make their points known via the public consultation forums etc. They are there precisely .. to hear us out. I hope they actually listen.

Wishing all of you a Happy Blessed New Year.


Interesting to know what you have done and what they have told you. If you may, do discuss with me in private, I'd like to know what happened and I can give you my strictest confidence that it will be kept within myself alone.
vaevictis
Challenge Poker Player
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:46 pm

Re: Govt moves to curb remote gambling in Singapore

Postby MikeTheFish » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:02 am

bottom line is govt wants a cut of the action.

Why tournaments are not held in Sg? Cause govt wants a 30% share of the buy ins and organisers not willing to pay

why soccer betting they still don't offer handicap?

the day govt allows online poker is when there is a new govt ....... lol
MikeTheFish
Shark
 
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:49 pm

Re: Govt moves to curb remote gambling in Singapore

Postby NOTNobody » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:17 am

The agenda behind this move I dare not speculate too much. But as a Singaporean, I will just complain here, there, everywhere.

That time open casino and impose entry levy I also affected. It doesn't deter people from entering the premise, it sucks you into it. The entry levy is more like a tax we must pay regardless win or lose.

Now they aim poker... Making life even harder than it already is.
NOTNobody
New Fish
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:40 pm

Re: Govt moves to curb remote gambling in Singapore

Postby MJFX » Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:29 am

If our top pro has to remain silent on these discussions, he must be doing it for the good of the game.
Sorry guys, I don't mean to dampen the spirit. But no matter how loud the voice is, the government once decided is never going to come out and single poker as a skilled game for exclusion. The public consultation is a pure PR exercise and maybe at best collecting feedback. But it will never change anything, not with this establishment. Poker players know about tells etc, this govt has never done anything different in the past to suggest they will listen, and certainly not this time. They are trying to catch the big fish in online gambling, it would not matter to them they ban poker in the process.

I certainly wouldn't count on govt to have a plan B for all of us by introducing poker in Singapore pools.. let's say they do, I wouldn't be surprised it's not going to be the variant that we know. Afterall, if they want to regulate and put up the game. It might just be just like limit holdem preflop only, so the typical toto/4d buying uncles and aunties can enjoy the game at home, 1 bet and see who lucky. Why would they want to recognize poker is a skilled game and make a platform for winning players to exploit. They have no incentives to do that.
Just my 2 cents worth, I hope to be proven wrong too. Our only serious hope is to get a politician to be with us (but who?) Or maybe hope the govt have other things in the agenda and have no time for this. But with new income stream (for Singapore pools) right in front of them like a new ERP gantry, I think they will act eventually.
User avatar
MJFX
Great White Shark
 
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:20 pm
Medals: 8
Long Jie Participant (1) Genting Poker Tournament (1) Macau Cup Participant (1) APPT Participant (1) 3rd Place in a poker tourny (1) Reporter - Bringer of news (1) Helpful Kaki (2)

Re: Govt moves to curb remote gambling in Singapore

Postby felixleong » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:12 pm

maybe if u all got time can consider reading this book called "who moved my cheese"
its hard to change the world but its easy to change yourself

if you are smart enough to make $$ from poker, I think you're probably smart enough to make $$ from other ways too such investing, trading or doing small business etc

if you still wanna play poker as a hobby there's always home games and RWS/MBS waiting, just hope you guys can stay positive.

Happy new year everyone, take care and good health always ^_^
User avatar
felixleong
Great White Shark
 
Posts: 1386
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:02 pm
Medals: 4
Long Jie Participant (1) 1000 posts (1) Article Contributor (1) Helpful Kaki (1)

Re: Govt moves to curb remote gambling in Singapore

Postby Brasstal » Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:26 pm

pokerace wrote:
Brasstal wrote:Dear Kakis,

Happy New Year to all of you.
Unfortunately I have been advised not to discuss these with anyone.

Seems our pro also asked to be silent!
What can our casual player do?
So more or less,kaki will guess what type of outcome it is,Lol!


Please do not misunderstand.


Probably not a good analogy:
For example, if a seafood importer from country X near fukushima got banned by the AVA, sends his brand representative comes in to convince the AVA that the seafood from country X is safe what weight would his words carry? What if an independent marine life professor comes instead to lay those claims with evidence and tests conducted by health bodies of other countries which continue to import Country X's seafood. Who would the Agri-Food & Veterinary Authority of Singapore believe or listen to instead? What if locals write and demand for seafood from country X and shows published reports from other countries stating how their citizens are safely consuming the catch from country X? Wouldn't that carry more weight from the brand representative?

Hope you guys can read between the lines.

We all have information on our hands, with evidence, examples of other countries & various intellectual bodies and individuals (presidents etc) who believe Poker is a game of skill. Use it?
User avatar
Brasstal
Team PokerStar Asia
 
Posts: 556
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:51 pm
Medals: 11
Genting Poker Tournament (1) Macau Cup Participant (2) APPT Participant (1) RPT Participant (1) FPT Participant (1) WSOP Participant (1) Crowned a poker tournament (1) 3rd Place in a poker tourny (1) Helpful Kaki (1)
Good Seller (1)

Pokerkaki Ads

Postby Pokerkaki Ads

Pokerkaki Ads
Shameless Advertising to keep this site alive

Re: Govt moves to curb remote gambling in Singapore

Postby pokerace » Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:59 pm

For regular,they will have their ways to keep on playing online poker,
but they really can't share with you here.
Even the one win 516k,also worried kaki spell out his name, lol.
As Poker is SG is likely that winning players try not to involved in anything that doesn't benefit them. They will stay low and keep on counting their $.
Whether you can keep on playing online,doesn't concern them.
Hope kaki understand their constraints since we are only casual players.

LOOK The Ceiling is DIRTY!LOL!
pokerace
Challenge Poker Player
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:31 pm
Medals: 2
Chatterbox - Bigga Mouth~ (1) Helpful Kaki (1)

PreviousNext

Return to General Poker Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

 

Recent Posts

Subscribe to RSS headline updates from:
Powered by FeedBurner

Site

Subscribe to RSS headline updates from:
Powered by FeedBurner