How to play pocket queens?

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Re: How to play pocket queens?

Postby CML » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:53 am

note, i didnt say just go all in and rebuy if ur behind

thanks everyone for replying, most replies were okay, lets shove
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Re: How to play pocket queens?

Postby mrballs » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:17 am

hmm. im surprised nobody mentioned this.

firstly, the tight aggressive player raised to 8 on the button. it's a weak bet considering he's tight and the general profile of a tight/aggressive would be to raise more substantially to protect his premium pairs, AA KK QQ.

secondly, u didnt state your current image at the table. so i assume u have a relatively tight image considering your thought process in the replies i've read. by reraising him, u are essentially telling him u have a premium, most likely holdings KK QQ JJ AK, AQ at most. most players, with that read, would call even if they are behind, because of the implied odds of hitting a set and felting the other player.

on to what i think he has.

flop's 5 10 J rainbow. u bet 50, he min raises to 50. i would min raise him 50 more. u'll have 125 behind screaming to him that 'im commited, dont f with me'. his min raise could very likely have been 99s, 88s, and not wanting to fall to a cbet, min raises to see where they are at. he'll be left with 2 options, all in or fold. he shoves, it's a pretty easy fold for u though u have 55% of your stack in. he's basically telling u he has AA, KK, a set, or very rarely QQ too. save the 125 for a better spot.

there is some merit to calling the 50 to see the turn, however, because of your positional disadvantage, u'll be forced to check should no Q drop leaving u to make the exact same decision as above on what u think he has on the flop should he shove, barring the scenario where overcards, an A or K appear, where it'll be a pretty straightforward fold.

think as if u were him, and how he perceives u to be. 88s or 99s, thats what i put him on.
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Re: How to play pocket queens?

Postby mrballs » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:22 am

on a side note, i guess we all have different perceptions on whether we are pot committed. for me, half my stack in does not constitute that im committed. why shove if u are 80% sure that u are beat, but thinking 'ah fuck it, im committed anyway'. it just takes a better spot for u where YOU are 80% sure u are good, for u to double up that half stack and break even.

65% of my stack would be a better definition for me as pot committed.

of course, it also depends on the number of players in the pot and the general stack size. but that's the gist of it.
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Re: How to play pocket queens?

Postby AsiaPokerAcademy » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:05 pm

I think if you min-reraise, you can't fold to his shove. He's aggressive and might shove over our min-reraise with AJ or even some occasional garbage (reading our min-reraise as weak). If you are going to re-raise, get it in or don't bother, imo
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Re: How to play pocket queens?

Postby CML » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:31 pm

mr balls that one would be a very interesting move. min-raising him 50 more. but no matter what he has, he's definately calling there due to the great implied odds which lies there. preflop: 70ish in including blinds + on flop 100 frm u and 100 frm him = 270 if he calls ur min raise he is potentially getting 50 into 370 which makes 7.4 to 1 i mean whats the odds of him folding possibly any thing here?

mr balls what if he just calls in this spot? what would be the move on the river? shove since he showed weakness?

or check over to him hoping he checks it too? <- den u probably know ur good in most situations

also 1 more interesting one.. what if he re-raises u ANOTHER 50 more? you will have 5% chance of hitting the turn here and ard 8-10% to hit the turn + river? omg this is getting interesting
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Re: How to play pocket queens?

Postby PoKerArt » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:51 pm

this must be a huge level
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Re: How to play pocket queens?

Postby mrballs » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:30 am

hmm, asiapoker, i mentioned that i assumed the hero to have a relatively tight image, and it most likely would be at the back of the villian's mind during the course of this hand.

min raising twice is definitely not a weak move, imo, it could very well be the ultimate in displaying strength. added to the fact that the hero has 175 in, 125 behind, the villian would 'know' that the hero's committed, when in reality that's what the hero is trying to instil in the villian's mind. villian would have 125 invested, 175 behind, in no way is he 'committed' to the hand should he have AJ. any half decent poker player would throw TPTK away probably 8 or 9 outta 10 times considering the above and all the action that's taken place both preflop and on the flop. only way he shoves with AJ is if he's an absolute fish who thinks TPTK is the nuts, or if he has the balls to pull the trigger with AK AQ, gj, u've to take your hat off to him. thus, after the hero reraises, and villian shoves, hero should lay it down.

CML, true, u are giving him great odds to call should he have AK AQ, even with with an underpair too. it's pretty abc from this pt forth, with 55% of both your stacks in, there's no more room to get a read on what he has. no A or K on the turn, time to shove. though i doubt a tight n aggressive player will just call the flop reraise. 85% of the time it'll be an all in/fold. but u are right, a call from him here pretty much screws up the whole play. shove on the turn and hope u were right and didnt get drawn out on with e turn card.

if he puts in a 4th bet, it'll essentially be the same as him pushing all in. too obvious that he's super strong and is afraid that he'll lose u with a shove after your reraise. therefore, his 2nd raise isn't actually 50, but to 125, the remaining 45% of your stack. easy easy fold should he get this case of fps.
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Re: How to play pocket queens?

Postby AsiaPokerAcademy » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:56 am

I really think min-raising is the worst of both worlds. You certainly don't get as much fold equity as a shove, you are committing more chips to the pot (with the intention of abandoning them if your opponent continues with his aggression - which may occur with weaker hands) and you are offering him odds to stick around with a hand with several weak hands he should be folding. Is that the "ultimate" display of strength? Is that how you play your strong hands? This method offers minimum value for you and maximum odds for your opponent, not a good combination in my opinion.
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Re: How to play pocket queens?

Postby mrballs » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:34 pm

the 2nd min raise is supposed to display the fact that u are 'committed', with 125 behind, a fact that he'll take note of. so basically u are not min raising 50, it's a virtual reraise of 175 more. if he was on a semi-bluff, underpair or AJ, he should realise that he's beat with ur 2nd min raise, which basically as i said, translates into, 'i got half my stack in, no way im folding, lets go motherfucker'. he needs to put 175 more in to win 425, about 2.4:1. if he's behind your queens, there's basically no hand that gives him odds to go on cept for maybe AK. AQ he has 7 outs. AJ he has 5 outs. underpair, 2 outs. thus, i dont see how he's getting 'maximum' odds.

only downside to my suggestion that its very... shall we say, 'phil helmuth'. i might be thinking on levels higher than what's necessary. when a simple shove is all that's needed. oh well. thats why it's called poker.
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Re: How to play pocket queens?

Postby CML » Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:23 am

3 pages of replies on pocket queens, obviously everyone is thinking on a much higher level

to be honest, its pretty much an easy shove on the flop BUT AGAIN... if your someone who has been multi-tabling and playing online alot of the time, you will find yourself having kings over aces and queens over kings/aces mnay times, avoiding all these hands would seriously mean a very very big difference in the profit you are going to get in a session. everyone will have over pockets running into sets many many times. its about avoiding these hands and losing lesser. as the saying goes, a bet saved is a bet earned. same thing, why people bet $35 - $50 into a $60 pot when they have top pair top kicker? its because if someone goes all in or shows alot of str at this point of time, you will have saved money as compared to betting a full $60, also a full $60 bet might scare someone to throw away his top pair decent kicker away.

seriously, if you are someone who just 1-table and plays leisurely, its an easy shove but if you are multi-tabling and playing nearly everyday, you will find yourself in these situations many times and facing a hand that dominates u.

Give you a scenario i experienced when playing live:

blinds are at $1/$2 9-man table
table was very very loose
i started the hand with about $300

i was dealt KK in MP+2

folded to MP who raised to $15
i re-raised to $50
SUPER ASS-TIGHT PLAYER (button) WHO is very passive preflop LIMPS with queens re-raised me to $100 almost instantly.
i know i'll most probably be behind but i thought for very long and i still shoved.

i. still. shoved.

obviously he had aces.

Thinking back, i was not given the right odds to call or even shove here because im not beating much. He is definately only doing that with Aces, Kings. Im either splitting with him or am being dominated badly. Sometimes you just know there is a high chance that he has it but ur human and its hard to fold kings preflop.

p.s that super ass tight player is uncle joe, if you know him
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Re: How to play pocket queens?

Postby newbie » Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:43 pm

yeah, there were definitely some levelling in this thread. madness.
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Re: How to play pocket queens?

Postby mistergoji » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:48 pm

i'll call to see the turn, then re evaluate if i have to go all in or check-fold :)
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Re: How to play pocket queens?

Postby ohboy » Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:41 pm

super tight player raises and you reraise with queens?

I assume he folds, and the button is another player?

I'm a little confused.


also, unless he has changed his playing style since last i've seen him, uncle joe cannot be described in any way as super ass tight.
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Re: How to play pocket queens?

Postby acemuzhold! » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:54 pm

i agree with Benaiah. if he's so obvious to be a tight-aggressive player, then it should be as obvious that he will be holding pockets or AK to call ur raise, OR he may even be fed up for being pushed around by looser players and call with pocket 5s, u cant discount that really. I doubt he will call eith J10 unless its suited then maybe. Normally, I would say, trust ur instincts then, as there ARE chances that he might be holding AJ to make this play, he will probably have to be a little crazy to do that with KJ or even QJ. But, as ur asking for long run, and I would say fold it and wait for better situations to put ur money in!

P/S: Don't use the 'because he only min-raise then I have to call' excuse to cloud ur judgement. as u see, $50 more is actually ALOT MORE compared to ur initial stack, u know the math, so count it and u know its not worth it. Always compare ur stack to wat u begin with in every round, that'll help u make more sound judgements.
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