Slowroll?

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Slowroll?

Postby newbie » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:43 pm

Hey guys, couple of days back, me and some of my live poker mates were talking abt the all-important ethical subject of slowrolling. We all know its basic definition of not showing the best hand/quite obviously the best hand until much later, with the intention of causing embarrassment/humiliation or whatever it is to the other party or parties involved in the showdown.

Well okay, simple enough. But here's a scenario for you:

A has quads on the river, absolute nuts. B, lets just say that he's bluffing.
On the river, B bets all-in. A snap-calls.
Immediately, B shows a face of agony and does not show his cards.
A stares at B for a second, waiting for B to show. B still does not show after a few seconds.
A then asks politely, 'May I see you hand, sir? You, after all, are the aggressor.'
B turns over 7-high for a bluff.
A then turns over quads, for the absolute nuts.

What is your opinion on this? Is this viewed to be slowrolling?

Or does it have to be that A is the aggressor and B calls an all-in and then A hollywoods before showing the nuts for it to be considered slowrolling?

Personally, to me this is slowrolling. I'd show my hand right away if I have the nuts/or thought to be somewhere near the nuts, and if I really wanted to see his hand, I'd ask politely after tabling my hand. But a friend of mine disagrees, and thus I thought this makes a great discussion.


This brings me to another scenario on the same underlying issue.

A has AK. B has 57. B is in position.
A raises preflop. B calls, all other players on the table fold.
Flop comes A72. A bets, B calls.
Turn is J. A bets out again, B calls.
River is 2. A checks, B bets out, A calls.
A immediately turns over his AK for TPTK. B nods and says 'Nice hand,' clearly indicating that AK is indeed the best hand on the river.
But before B mucks, another player, C, asks B politely 'May I see what you bet on the river with? You're the aggressor and hence we have the right to see your hand.'

What's your take on C's behaviour? Is it something you would do? After all, B has already indicated that he is beat on the river. I know that C has the right, yes, because B was indeed the aggressor and we all know that aggressors have to show first. But A already tabled his AK for the best hand.

Please give your two cents.

Thanks guys.
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Re: Slowroll?

Postby statix » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:53 am

I think I agree with the the thread starter. If you have the nuts, show first, even though technically your opponent should be showing his first. I see that behavior very often when I was playing in Macau, more often done by Chinese who have just picked up the game, probably picking up that move from movies. I even saw a tourist got really mad after being slowrolled.

For the 2nd scenario, it's generally considered unethical for C to be asking to view the hand, though C has the right to do so. The rule is there to combat collusion, and ought to only be exercised when the player you want to see is suspected to be colluding. And for the same reason, it can be pretty insulting when one is asked to show a hand by a non-involved player.
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Re: Slowroll?

Postby newbie » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:03 am

yes i have the same exact sentiments as you but the fact of the matter is, my friend thinks that C, being a player on the table who has paid blinds and all, deserves that right. Anyway, if it was B who asked, does it make any difference at all?
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Re: Slowroll?

Postby Nicefingers » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:35 am

Player C has no right to ask. Sorry. Its B's hands. If he's beat legitimately, he can muck because the best hand showed first in the showdown. B has the right to muck his hand to not reveal any information on how he plays his hands. Unless there's suspicion of collusion.

As for the 1st scenario, A has the right to see the hand. It's not a slowroll. Its perfectly fine. The player who is bluffing could have just muck his hand if he doesn't wanna show.
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Re: Slowroll?

Postby newbie » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:51 am

If B mucks, does A still need to table his hand? The problem is this rule varies from place to place. Some places say that a muck on aggressor means the other party wins the hand without having to show while some demand a show to claim the pot.
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Re: Slowroll?

Postby Nicefingers » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:54 am

If B mucks, A doesn't need to show the hand.
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Re: Slowroll?

Postby acemuzhold! » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:25 pm

For situation no1, A has the right to see B's hand, coz B went all in and A calls. even with the absolute nuts, A has to be interested in what hands B is playing with and made the call (also known as paid to see opponent's cards) necesary to see it. that's the point of a 'call', to be able to see your opponents hand. This is also a reason why some players would push in say 95% of the stack instead of 100%, so that when their opponent put them all in for their remaining 5%, they will actually be 'calling' instead of being the aggressor, and will be entitled to see opponent's cards. Hope that makes sense there.

For 2nd situation, doesn't matter whether the player was involved in the blinds, flop, turn or even river! as long as C did not make it to the showdown (even if it means he folded to a river bet), he does not have the right to see the cards. Same theory here, he didn't call, hence he didn't pay for the right to see the opponent's cards. In this situation, B lost the hand, so for christ sake plz dun rub on his wounds and demand him to show his lost hand! Of coz, UNLESSS A wants to see it, then A can request to see his hand,not C, in this case then B has to show everyone. But if A didn't mention anything, B absolutely don't have to show!

Now, for the showing cards part if opponent mucks. Most places now demands that even if opponent mucks, the winner still has to show his cards to win the pot. Similarly, you actually cant just show 1 card to win the pot (NOTE THIS!!), must show both cards to win (however most dun follow this rule unfortunately). I have seen b4, in a casino game where a player only shows 1 card (even if its the winning card) and doesn't show the other, when the dealer mucks it the pot went to his opponent who lost!! When he complained, the casino manager actually scolded the player as it was his fault and not the dealer's fault. It's a written rule and a poker ethic that is both polite and respected by everyone. I like this rule and I hope everyone follows it. Hope that answers alot.
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Re: Slowroll?

Postby Nicefingers » Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:33 pm

If opponent mucks on the river and the winning players was asked by someone else to show his hands, he didn't have to. I was playing in APPT and the floor said the player that won the pot without showing down cos the opponent mucked didn't have to show the hand.
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Re: Slowroll?

Postby acemuzhold! » Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:38 am

well, even if the player mucks, probably should also show out of courtesy (unless u wana put him on tilt by lying and saying u have nothing!) haha!oh, but most places follows that alreadyy actually, guess APPT not yet
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Re: Slowroll?

Postby revvy » Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:16 pm

limps around and A raises on the button with 79o and gets 3 callers.
flop: A79 rainbow
checks around and A leads out for 75% pot, 2 folded, heads-up to the turn
turn: Q with a flush draw
A leads out for a pot-size bet, and gets check-called.
river: 2 and flush hits
villian bets half the pot.
A goes into the tank, vacillates for a few mins, and calls.

---

(1st ending)
villian says "ONE pair." without showing his cards to everyone.
A thought to himself, "one pair? or top pair? he doesn't have top pair and called me down? didn't hit his flush and bet on the river? weird setup for a bluff. doesn't know showdown value if he has a Q? or maybe he has AT+ betting out for pot control? i wanna see his cards."
A says, "which one?", without flipping his better hand yet.
villian shows a Q.

(2nd ending)
still keeping his cards faced down, A asks him to show both cards because he claims he wants to know what kicker the guy has. and as a matter of fact, it is a standard routine to show both cards at showdown.

----

now, is this slowrolling considered A earnestly wants to know what his opponent was trying to do?
or should the modus operandi be to say two pairs, and LATER request to ask which pair he had?
what if the villian just mucks and says good call, but refuses to show his cards.
to preclude the possibility of the villian doing just that and not knowing your opponent's tendency in brick and mortar games, was doing just as the story played out considered to be ill-mannered?
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Re: Slowroll?

Postby Nicefingers » Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:10 pm

This is not a slowroll because hero called and by right villain should show down first. He has the right to ask him to show before showing his to see his cards for information which is why -callers get to see aggressor cards first rule- exists.
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Re: Slowroll?

Postby acemuzhold! » Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:27 am

like wat i said b4, in the case where A CALLED the river bet, then he has the right to see B's hand, regardless of whether he has the nuts or not.

If villian mucks fast b4 anyone said anything, and it got into the muck pile, then no1 gets to see it of course. Maybe he really was genuinely bluffing and is embarrassed so he mucks quickly, happens sumtimes, part of the game that is
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