Notes taken in online play

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Notes taken in online play

Postby chenghao » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:24 pm

Do you all take notes of your opponent's play and tendencies ?
or just rely on your HUD / Tracker / Manager etc ?
If you all do take notes , what format do you note in ? etc ?
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Re: Notes taken in online play

Postby chenghao » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:34 pm

i like to note betting pattern , like

Profile : Boardway Flush drawer / Weaktight /Setminer / LAG etc
Betting Patterns : 3bb , 3 bb , 7 bb , 12 bb for what situation ( AJ , TPTK , AJ up , AJ full)
C/c with PP , c/c with set , min raises with set , shoves despot of suited board
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Re: Notes taken in online play

Postby Froggy » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:18 pm

yea i trust my notes more than the hud. in fact i can play without hud, cuz im like 6 tables max, normally 4.

my notes are something like these: doesnt let go of overpair on wet boards, pays off with 2 pair on flush board, draws to river & c/f when missed, bets when drawing OOP, will bet if checked to; high bluff freq etc

i describe their actions, rather than vague notes like "fish", "donk" u dont get much out of these

and also the most impt thing that i find most ppl leave out,. is not putting in the DATE when u make notes. (if the note is within a week, ican safely assume hes still palying the same way, will re-evaluate if longer than that duration.


and color code is damn good, if u play on like FTP for e.g. (green = weak/tight passive/can bully, red = reg, purple = maniac etc)
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Re: Notes taken in online play

Postby chenghao » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:21 am

You don't note betting patterns ?
what other colour patterns do you use ?

green = weak/tight passive/can bully
red = reg - avoid pots with him
purple = maniac

i googled for online poker notes and summarised these.

http://www.tightpoker.com/player_notes.html

I'll start off by saying that everyone should take player notes at Party Poker. Don't know how to take notes? Just right-click on the avatar (picture) of the target player and click "Player Notes" - it's that easy. The hard part is figuring what to take notes of however. So that's where I'll try to help.

Here is a template of my player notes:
(Tricky/Good/Ok/Poor) :: (Tight/Semi-Tight/Loose)/(Maniac/Agg/Solid/Caller/Passive) :: (PSER / NO PS) :: (BLUFFER!)
(Tell descriptor)
Bets: (Draw / Top pair / TP weak kicker / Mid pair / Low pair / trips, etc)
No Bets: (Draw / Top pair / Mid pair / Weak kicker / Low pair, etc)
PR: (Cards) NOPR: (Cards) TRN: (Cards)
p: (Cards)

(Tricky/Good/Poor)
This is my overall view of the player when I need to take a quick look and figure them out. You should usually only note this down after many hands, when you have got a good sense of whether or not this player is a complete moron (poor) or card shark (Good/Tricky/Solid). This is most useful actually after you've left the table and meet this person again somewhere down the road. This piece of information alone will give you a good idea of how to deal with this person.
(Tight/Loose/Maniac)
A very important note to take down when you need information. Tight players are those that are selective about their hands and won't see too many pots or showdowns. Loose players are the opposite and will play many hands. So for example, when a tight player is in the pot with you and is raising what seems like rags on the board, you should start to get a hunch that they're either holding complete crap or have a monster like trips waiting for you. For poor players however, they could quite likely have paired the rags. If there are high cards on the table however, a tight player will more likely to have paired, while the poor player is more likely to not have paired, or is holding a weak kicker.

(Maniac/Agg/Solid/Caller/Passive)
This is the demeanor of the player, which combined with how Tight/Loose they are, should tell you *a lot* about their hand strength. Maniacs are people who bet everything under the sun and bluff at all sorts of pots. Agg means aggressive, which doesn't necessarily mean bluffer, but this person will bet with any kind of strength, be it a draw, low pair, mid pair, Ace high and so on. Solid is a player who plays the game straight up, meaning they'll bet strong cards and fold when they are weak or have nothing. Callers are those who don't bet often, but will call many bets and raises to the river. Passive players are Callers who just never, ever, ever bet. So, an example combination would be Loose/Caller, which should tell you this guy is going to be in the pot with you with just about anything, so you shouldn't always be afraid if he calls your raise. If you have a Tight/Solid player however, then any bets or calls from this guy could be a warning sign for you.

(PSER / NO PS):
Short for "Pot stealer" or "Pot shooter". This means this person will bet at the pot when it's been checked to them and they are in late position. I find this specific piece of information very useful, because while many players just don't bluff, many players do like to try and steal the pot in this situation. Players who consistently do this, you can setup with a check-raise trap or even a check-raise bluff. A lot of times when you also want to make a call, this is important information when you want to know if someone is just trying to steal the pot or actually has strength.

(BLUFFER!):
This is an optional tag that I don't use often, but when I do, it means this player is a major bluffer and needs to be called down when there is ANY shred of doubt. A number of players will *always* raise/re-raise a trip or flush threat (among other things) to try and scare people out. These players need to be called or raised if you have any kind of strength (although that said, watch out for players with stronger hands calling the bluffer too).

(Tell Descriptor):
I don't have anything written for this field for most players, simply because in my opinion, tells are a bit overrated than what they actually are. Especially in online poker. That being said, some players *do* have tells that will give their hand away. The most common descriptors you'll see in my notes are simple and to the point:

* PAUSE = MONSTER (a drawn out delay means this person has the nuts or close to it)
* AUTO = MONSTER (auto means they use the 'Raise anything' button that bets out immediately)
* CR = MONSTER (cr = check-raise)

Note that I will only write these tells when I'm pretty darn sure after seeing this behavior enough times. If I'm not sure, I'll add a (?) to the end of it and verify it later. Otherwise, I don't want to fold a hand when I'm not really sure if they have the nuts or not. But otherwise, when I do have this tell, I know to basically fold when the person does this.

Bets: (Draw / Top pair / TP weak kicker / Mid pair / Low pair / trips):
This is getting into the fine details of this person's behavior. This is where you specifically write down what kinds of hands this player bets with. Does he only bet with top pair, or with low pair and mid pair too? What kind of kicker does he bet with? (very important!). By tracking these, you can then figure out what category of player this person falls into (Agg/Solid/Caller/Passive).

No bets: (Draw / Top pair / Mid pair / Weak kicker / Low pair, etc):
Exact opposite of the above, you can also tell a lot about a player by what they're *not* willing to bet. Are they the type to just check on the flop if they have trips? Do they not bet their flush/straight draw? Will they not raise with a King high flush? Little notes like these can give you a fine aspect of this person's game.

PR or PF (Cards):
Short for "pre-flop raise". Also referred to as PF. What I list after PR is the actual hands I see this person pre-flop raising with. This is usually very important information, because you will always stand to lose the most money when you hold a dominated hand. And most of the time, you won't know if you're dominated until you flip those cards over. Because most people only raise strong cards pre-flop, you can tell with varying degrees of success how powerful your opponents' cards are. A large group of players will only raise three hands: AA, KK and AK. If you can catch onto this and note it down, the next time they PR, you'll know to fold your hand quite quickly, even if you're holding a hand like AJ or possibly even AQ - which will save you lots of money in the long haul. Versus a hyper-aggressive player, if you notice them raising pre-flop with K2o, you'll also be well prepared to call their PR if you hold ATo or another moderately strong hand.

NOPR or NOPF (Cards):
Short for "no pre-flop raise", the exact opposite of the above. Why mention this? Sometimes, there are players who never raise AA, KK, AKs, QQ, JJ or many other strong hands. Then suddenly, they'll bite you on the flop with some unexpected raises. By recording this information down, you can possibly tell if that person is hiding something strong that they didn't let anyone know about pre-flop.

TRN (Cards):
Short for "Train" as in the locomotive. I use this metaphor when someone will pretty much bet these hands to the river without any hesitation or thought; when they've already decided before the flop what they plan on doing. This is not a compliment. What this usually indicates is that this person will over play certain hands because he/she thinks they are strong and can just force people out of the pot. A common theme is marking people as "TRN: AK", which means they will bet big-slick like there is no tomorrow, even if they don't pair on the river. I also use it when they train a draw, like "TRN: flush draw", as many people seem to fall under that category.

p (Cards):
Short for "plays". This is a listing of what kind of cards this particular player will play. An example would be "p: 95o,A5s,23s.." and so on. This is useful because a quick look at your notes will tell that this player is a garbage collector, as opposed to another player with the notes "p: ATs, KQ, AJ, TT..". An important thing to mention is to ignore the players in the big and small blind when taking notes on what hands they play, since they'll automatically be playing those hands for the most part.

Other acronyms I use when taking player notes also:

* RR: Raises (Example: RR top pair)
* RRx: Re-raise multiple times (Example: RRx flush draw)
* (Cards)*: Usually this means they'll play this hand when it has been raised (Example: "p:TT**" means they'll play TT even with two raises pre-flop)

And finally, some pointers when taking notes:

* Don't directly insult players in your notes, it'll make you play worse against that person
* Following the above, don't take notes after a bad beat, calm down and make a note later
* Don't be so excessive about your note taking that you miss out on the action
* Don't always take notes when people play good cards (KQ, QJ, KJ, etc). Everyone plays good cards, it's a given.
* If it can't all fit on the notes screen, it's not going to be useful in a pinch.
* Don't worry about keeping your notes neat and tidy. I try but often fail. As long as it's useful, it's good.

Anyhow, that's pretty much my system of player notes. Don't think of this as a defacto standard; this is just what I use and what works for me. If you have no system, hopefully this will get you thinking to what kind of things you want to jot down when you play.
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Re: Notes taken in online play

Postby chenghao » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:28 am

http://www.poker-tomorrow.com/poker/online/note-taking/

Online Poker Note Taking

by David Huber

Online Poker Note TakingSitting across from virtual opponents who do not give off physical tells is a challenging situation for any poker player, regardless of skill. Forget about the guy who leans back in his chair when he’s satisfied with his hand strength… and forget about the gal who stacks her chips while trying to force a read out of her opponent.

If you’re going to play successfully online, you’ll need to seek out and take advantage of tiny edges to compensate for the lack of physical interaction. One of these edges is available to any player online, on almost any site… and that’s the ability to take permanent notes on the players you compete against.

Some consider online poker note taking a science, others think of it as an art form. The two adjectives that should most accurately define YOUR method are “practical” and “useful”. One of the most common misuses of this feature is employing vague, out of date terms like FISH, ROCK, SHARK, and DONKEY to describe your opponents. Unless you have a pre-conceived and specific idea of what these one-word labels mean, you’re selling yourself short and giving away expectation.

There are certain things that are note-worthy (for example: betting patterns, calling/shoving ranges, and overall methodology)… and a couple of things that are not (no-brainer decisions and bad beats). You want to be objective when taking notes, making sure the information you input will actually increase your future expectation versus that opponent.

In today’s tournament environment, one of the first things you’ll want to note about the players on your left is how often they are flat-calling raises and shoves. This will be especially useful for you later on when the blinds increase, and will often affect your push/fold decisions with marginal hands. You’ll also want to note how often players are raising pre-flop, along with how they are reacting to re-raises.

Below are two examples of notes on tournament players:

Example 1:

3x PFR from MP, folded to shove (twice)

Opn EP high %

2.7x digit PFR from BTN w/88, called shove

defends BB high %

Example 2:

2.5x PFR from HJ w/AA

min re-raise only w/AA-KK

4x PFR from CO, folded to shove (twice)

shoved flop w/BsPP<

Cash games are a bit different when it comes to note taking, since much of the information you’ll be recording is based on post-flop tendencies. Instead of trying to figure out ranges on your own (there are programs allowed by poker sites that can help with cash game ranges), you should concentrate on finding opportunities that will allow you to gain value versus your opponents. Following are two examples of notes on cash game players.

Example 1:

PFR + Check = Me Bet

Thin river bet = Me Fold

C-Bet only with TP+

Example 2:

DNB!

C-Bet/Chk-raise line w/overpair+

4x PFR = strong ace

ABBREVIATIONS

PFR = Preflop Raise

3x = three times the big bind

C-Bet = Continuation Bet

UTG = Under The Gun

UTG +1/+2 = positions following Under The Gun

HJ = Hijack (two positions before button)

CO = Cutoff

BTN = Button

SB = Small Blind

BB = Big Blind

EP = Early Position

MP = Middle Position

LP = Late Position

Chk = Check

VB = Value Bet

AJ+ = Range equals Ace-Jack or better

SC = Smooth Call

DNB! = Do Not Bluff!

TP = Top Pair

MP = Mid Pair

BP = Bottom Pair

BsPP> = Pocket Pair that failed to hit the flop, ranging in value between top two flop cards

BsPP< = Pocket Pair that failed to hit the flop, ranging in value between bottom two flop cards or below

OvP = OverPair

Ovs = Overcards

FDrw = Flush Draw

SDrw = Straight Draw

Gut = Gutshot Straight Draw

Back = Backdoor Flush Draw

These abbreviations can help simplify note taking and allow you to focus on your opponents instead of your keyboard. However, taking perfect notes means nothing if you’re not capable of converting information into an edge. After all, you’re only as good as your ability to adapt. If you have a note on the player to your left that says “DNB!”, and you bet into him/her with air, then you should be prepared to suffer the consequences. If your note says “PFR + Check = Me Bet”, and you check behind your opponent on a scary flop, then you just might be giving away money.

Taking proper notes may require practice for someone who hasn’t used this option. It also takes a bit of time to get used to actually looking up the notes you have already taken, and incorporating them into your strategy. Also, you never want to accept note taking as a substitute for paying attention… they are two completely different concepts. Anything you type in about an opponent will most likely be used in a general form in a future situation. Paying attention is much more immediate, and much more valuable in the long run.
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Re: Notes taken in online play

Postby DM101 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:37 am

Thank you for the valuable input Chenghao. :P
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Re: Notes taken in online play

Postby chenghao » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:39 am

DM101 wrote:Thank you for the valuable input Chenghao. :P


i want to know how you note leh DM ,do you scribble notes or use just those HUD/HE mgr
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Re: Notes taken in online play

Postby Froggy » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:21 pm

i use almost all the color in FTP

green = calling stn/can bully (basically bet/value bet against them/ want position over them)
orange = reg/multi tablers/2p2ers (avoid if possible, shutdown if they give action)
purple = maniac
red = Good LAG/3betters
blue = Good SSS (give them position)
light blue = bad SSS
yellow = good TAG (shutdown when they give action)
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