About the 'police bust' in yishun

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About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby toothy07 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:01 pm

Before anything, I would like to begin that whatever written by me here, is mostly my personal opinions, and I shall not be pointing any fingers at anyone, or making any fake accusations. Whenever needed to quote someone, I will cite with relevant references.

I am a close friend to many of those who were 'busted' by police in the Yishun condominium. By writing this, I just hope to create more awareness among those who are interested in the issue, as well as those who are not familiar with the identification of a poker player.
This is my side of the story.

First, I admit that rake games are illegal. But I always feel that the issue of rake is within the gray areas. We must know that even in casinos or online poker websites, a percentage of rake is still taken away from the winning pot. In a private home game, the rake I believe is used to mainly cover expenses on food, dealer, rental and electrical bills. I believe the root problem of rake is not rake itself, but the evadable 'tax'. Why the Singapore government is unwilling to legalize home rake games is still a matter that baffles me, but that's another case altogether. I know that there will be a group of people who are against rake games, but I believe for most poker players like myself, I do not mind paying for the service to enjoy a comfortable game - not having to self deal, with air conditioning and beverages covered. Also, if casinos are the only place I can play poker legally, then I can't play at all since I cannot afford the stakes. If private home games can be legalized (in one way or another in future), there are definitely smaller stakes which most people can afford. Theoretically, I shall be denied of poker, because I am not rich enough. ???

Secondly, the condo was NOT rented for the sole purpose of gambling. I quote this from

"Re: Police bust organised gambling den in pte condominium
by support » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:31 pm
It's not a private home game to begin with... RENTED CONDO for the purpose of gambling."


There are people living in the place as their homes. The condo was just like any other rented homes to those who live in it permanently. Playing poker is a sideline activity. For us, as a group of friends, it's a place for gathering. Besides playing poker, we often hang out to watch soccer together on weekends. It is not fair for us, when outsiders jump to conclusions base one one-sided stories.

Thirdly, today's court hearing has seen many disputable charges against my friends who were arrested. I cannot quote anything here as the charges are not in black and white for friends and families who sat in to hear. So, here is just a loose description of what I heard. First, the police jumped to conclusion that the condo was a gambling den opened to public. Not true. Anyone who is coming for a game is expected by the host. Most of them are all own friends, or friends of friends. The door will absolutely not be opened to invite any Tom, Dick or Harry in. Second, as seen in news (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/cna/cgi- ... id=1049359), "Cash and other gaming paraphernalia were also seized during the raid." When the police barged in (they did not come in as undercover, they barged), what was caught 'red-handed' was only the game of Texas holdem'. By other gaming paraphernalia they meant, a mahjong set and table, and the Da Xiao toy. Yes, it is a battery operated toy, which was bought in a shop called "Cool Little Things". If it is an illegal gambling device, why can it be bought anywhere easily? Police found it the cupboard where it was kept. It wasn't 'caught red handed' like how the news on TV seems to portray. I admit we did play with it, but only during the chinese new year periods when everyone was in the gambling mood. It wasn't taken out of the cupboard since then. Ultimately, the whole situation is 'uglified' because they found this toy. And mahjong??? I think you guys get my point. During the hearing, it was also charged upon them that they were caught playing poker and on "gambling machines", which of course we disputed. Hence postponed the hearing to a later date.

Last but not least, I just want to clarify that as a poker player, I refuse to identify myself as a gambler! Poker is a game of skills and not a game of chance. To me, it's a great mind sports. There are several professionals who make a living out of playing poker, like how soccer players play soccer for a living and out of passion for the game. I guess Singapore is just not exposed to poker enough , and hence not ready to accept it yet. But i am hopeful about the future. The purpose of this post, is not to help my friends get out of trouble or push the blame to others. We have indeed brushed against the law, and we admit it. Whatever the punishments, we just have to face the consequences. What I want to highlight is, We are not Gamblers! I feel so insulted and angered when the police and media try to portray us like those back alley geylang gambling operations.This is so sad a story because what was meant to be a fun game (not a freaking gambling den) among friends, turn out to become so ugly and presented to the public in such a bad light.

I sincerely hope poker enthusiasts can empathize with the unfortunate plight of my friends and i call out for your moral support. May there be sunshine after the rain. Friends of Khatib UNITE!
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Sirtanley » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:11 pm

i will always stand by you guys!
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby xiaosan14 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:19 pm

hi,
i had read your Pm i really feel for those Ppl,cause Poker is like a game of MJ.friend get around
and have some times and fun together but when i heard the news its was like why them,i strongly believe they may only be students who are interest in poker.There are so many more ppl outside who gamble more illegally and with more money.ITS JUST POKER FOLKS
i hope god will have mercy for them.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Hedge » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:41 pm

I am sorry op but u are clearly wrong. Firstly, do u even realize how much these so called host make per night?
There is absolutely no justification for them to be making these amount of money for the "work" they do. And I am pretty sure the yishun game is operated more like a gambling den than a social game.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby toothy07 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:04 pm

to hedge:
Hi, i appreciate ur input. You are probably among those not for the idea of rake games whom i have mentioned. And i do realise how much they are making. But as an individual, I do not mind the rake i am 'charged' for the 'services' i get in return. Not trying to rebut u but clearly this article wasn't meant for audiences like you cos' you bound to disagree. And lastly, as part of their social circle, I guess I am more aware of our social activities than others.
Poker is all about having a fun game n meeting new friends. Let's not get hostile here.
Cheers :)
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Keiki8 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:12 pm

.
Last edited by Keiki8 on Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby necrohavoc » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:53 pm

In my opinion I think many people have the wrong impression of the activity Poker, be it from a gambling point of view or skill game point of view. Poker is just an activity like any other, it does not have intrinsic value of "gambleness". It is the players themselves who choose how to approach the activity. If one imparts their mental skills and powers of observation to give them an edge..then perhaps its more of a skill approach..same goes for someone who chooses to all-in blind or raise crazy amounts..then its more of a gamble for them. We know gamblers participate in poker games (some even target them) and hence gambling happens...unfortunately in a poker game. As it happens to football, bowling, rock/paper/scissors..down to marbles as kids.

These raked games are illegal, besides taxation reasons, because there is no element of control from the authorities as well. No auditing to see if games are not rigged or biased, no security checks for underaged players, possible money laundering avenue..the list goes on.

If utilities and refreshments are to be recoup by the host, perhaps a system where everyone pools in a nominal sum would greatly help one's case if one got busted and facing a magistrate. Casino style raking, % of pot, for covering overheads is not a reasonable argument. It's like bringing 5 dvds from JB and telling the customs its for yourself and friends as opposed to bringing 100 dvds and telling the same story.

Haven't been posting in a while and this is just my two casino chips worth.

Remember poker is 50% Luck 50% Skill and 50% Math
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Hedge » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:00 pm

I do agree that poker is about having fun. I remember a few years back we just had to pay an entrance fee like $20 to cover the dealer and the expenses. That is what i call a real social game. Nowadays most raked game real objective is just to make money. Host typically makes around $1500 per night which means everyone added together needs to lose $1500 each night. That's around $200 per night and $6000 per month per person. Do u think a typical young male can afford that? The economics just isn't sound and problems is bound to arise.
And in this case it happens. Someone tip off the police. I do know 2 guys from the grp that got busted last night on a personal level.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby toothy07 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:03 pm

Okay, let's just move away from the topic of rake. The verbal war between against and for rake games has been going on forever. Hedge, you are totally missing the point of this article. Peace.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Afternoon » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:16 pm

If the police want to raid you, they hack care whether you raked or no rake.

To them gambling is gambling, how the host collect money or so call rake no rake, the host can jolly well explain to the judge and do you think the judge play Texas poker and do understand your explaination?
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby chenghao » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:31 pm

so far those that have been raided all raked leh , there isn't a non rake game raid , is there?
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Hedge » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:39 pm

tooth ur article is extremely biased and inaccurate. How can u claim the game is not open to public when there is post all over this forum looking fo players? If I recall correctly, there is even one post claiming that the game resemble a gambling den. And from what I know, it seems that the condo is "let out" to others to host when the host is busy.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Froggy » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:43 pm

chenghao wrote:so far those that have been raided all raked leh , there isn't a non rake game raid , is there?


chenghao! self deal $0.20/$0.40 game needed, long time no play live liao!
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby bendon » Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:07 pm

I hope you guys can UNDERSTAND the content and what the news had reported (those who nv read newspaper or watch news please keep your comment to yourself), now the public know it as GAMBLING DEN with poker, da siao, MJ and gambling machine (which is not true). the police concluded that the condo was a gambling den opened to public( any stranger can walk in like those in geyland) which is not too! I am pretty sure most of ppl in poker kaki know how a game is run? why the story is so different from the fact from the police?
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