About the 'police bust' in yishun

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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby melnin0 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:39 pm

For me, anything below 3% is acceptable and reasonable.But the host must also do their part as a good host la (refreshments, good dealer etc.) IMO rake is part and parcel of poker. A non-rake 1/1 and above game now is like a needle in the sea. Even if you play online or in casinos, they rake you. So I don't see why some people are making a big hoo-ha over raked games.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby deanaed » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:09 pm

I support Toothy on this. I'm just surprised that the police did not then turn on all the laptops, computers and mobile phones at the place and declared everyone there as porn video traders too lol.

These home games are invite only, and not open-for-public geylang back-alley gambling dens out to swindle poor aunties. All of us go into these games to have a nice evening of poker, enjoy ourselves win or lose, and make friends. Hell, I'm bored enough in Singapore, casinos want to screw me of $100 to enter, and even the bloody movies cost me $100++ considering parking, movie tickets, popcorn, dinner etc for the wife and kids.

Get a good lawyer bro, the prosecution to my understanding has to prove that the place is being utilized mainlyy for gambling (which @$*)%#!@ obviously isn't), and has to prove that the gambling is habitual in nature.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Clonz » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:13 pm

I agree there is a common misunderstanding on poker players as gamblers...Even though i am a poker player myself...i would still have to think that this yishun place deserves to be termed as illegal....The host knows that there is this grey area part of the law and there have been previous cases of convictions at other raked games.This is a clear sign of a business risk right from the start, so i believe the host is not working and this is his sources of income by hosting a rake game....Seriously the host has decided to earn this money by taking on this risk...and at his hindsight he believe he can somehow convince the general public that its a home and friendly game...Lets get out from the sympathetic view of a fellow poker player and put urself into the position of a judge and how are u going to uphold laws and order to keep this society in place(there are a lot of implications and backlash for every imperfect decisions u made).

(i am not sure about the case but this is what i presume on a general rake games host ,if anyone has more information pls feel free to fill in)

1.He has no job
2.This is his only source of income(yea to cover all those expenses...but he can still live on the excess petty cash amount like i believe 2 k a month is not an underestimation )
3.He host games very regularly(more than twice a week is excess already ...)
4.There are friends of friends and we r having private games(this argument can hardly hold...weak form of argument...even if i give u benefit of the doubt...but when everything adds up...this tilt the scale to 'u r guilty).Bcos u r running a business model here already...and how many of these friends u really know everyone on a close basis(up till a point you are treating most of them more like a customer already than friends friends or close friends.)...come on if u r a judge u would feel that the person is trying to come up with some lame excuse to hide his intent of running a business model...ok seriously i believe there is a grey area....here...the host don't have the whole intention to run as a business model..but he must be thinking...if i can earn money from hobby also not bad ma....u r profiting from here...thats the reason that puts u the negative side


So in order to solve this problem i believe there is a way to do this...its all about the overall image...

I know a group of retirees 'gamble' regularly everyday at public place like void decks and yet police is not going to do anything to them...
They are uncles playing chess for money at void decks...why they dun get caught and why u?


There is another thing i would like to highlight .....If you are hosting a friendly rake games among friends....IF YOU EVER RAKE MORE THAN THE EXTRA RAKE OF 2%...WOULDN'T IT AMOUNT TO STEALING FROM FRIENDS????????????????? Why do we show sympathy to assholes who steal from friends???
Ohh the host can say " i am not the one who is raking,, is the dealer who overrakes" There is this asshole who steals from your friends and if u happen to know it....why shouldn't you carE? Izzit bcos they r customers not friends or my friends dun mind me stealing from them?

Can you imagine how rampant would the rake games situations in singapore would be if the judge determined rake games to be legal?
Although poker is a game of SKILL in the long run, there are still short run variances...and there need to be proper accountability
systems to be setup to accommodate the game.This system is not really any Tom Dick and harry individual can just setup and handle on their own without any conflicts of self interest ....
Ppl do not understand...the grey area is needed to really punish those who really went out of line....and at the same time protect those really truly innocent parties......

If i am the judge.... i would give this group of people verbal warning but i have to let them know...there should not be a repeat of the same offence...i am still sympathetic to them but i also need to uphold a system that would not threaten the stable foundations our society has been built on.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby xiaosan14 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:33 pm

Mr hedge,As u talk about you know tw o guy from the bust so what,Whos Care ,you Dont as if you are Mr right here,
the thread here now is to talk about the game and how to get ppl Know to this case and somemore hw you know the place is open to public,And you talk From your Butt Brain not your head brain,to talk about how are you sure,how you know they ops more like a gambling Den then a social place.its just all from your words.i serously think do you know what happen exactly,if not then keep to yourself and stop begin a idiot on adding the salts to the wound.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby LamerL » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:35 pm

I feel that what sg is trying to do here, is to stem out the issue before more problems arise.

Running a rake game is no big deal really, but what might happen in these places where money is involved are aplenty, like a fellow kaki has mentioned above, accusations of swindling, 'rigged' games, stealing, etc.

And due to the above, a raked house game do not have the proper security/authority to deal with such things when it happens, CCTV, etc, like in poker rooms of casinos. So imagine if someone went to file a police report about 'rigged' games and stuff when there is no proof other than verbal claims, how are they supposed to handle the case?

Even in live poker rooms there are occasions when people get bad beat or something and go into a rage, doing some really stupid things, after which security is quickly called into action. Or even small things like accidentally mucking a hand, and then wanting to take it back(No, you cant do that in poker rooms). Stuff like that you need to have proper systems in place to handle. Worst case scenario, someone goes crazy and draws a weapon, what do you do?

In hindsight, because a house raked game usually do not have such systems in place to ensure fair play, security, and things like that, law enforcement in sg naturally wants to stem out these things, lest they become more troublesome(If they allow raked games, more will show up, and more games = more risks of things happening).

Thats what i feel about where they are coming from, not sure if i am right though.

But having said that, i do sympathize with the people who were caught in the raid, assuming that it really is a bunch of friends gathering to play poker. I for one, do not like to self-deal anymore having played in poker rooms quite abit, and was looking forward to going to raked games when i get back to SG for holidays, but it seems that it is not to be :(

Oh well, i guess i will stick to the poker rooms in vancouver then :D

My 2 cents
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby chenghao » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:40 pm

xiaosan14 wrote:Mr hedge,As u talk about you know tw o guy from the bust so what,Whos Care ,you Dont as if you are Mr right here,
the thread here now is to talk about the game and how to get ppl Know to this case and somemore hw you know the place is open to public,And you talk From your Butt Brain not your head brain,to talk about how are you sure,how you know they ops more like a gambling Den then a social place.its just all from your words.i serously think do you know what happen exactly,if not then keep to yourself and stop begin a idiot on adding the salts to the wound.


dun do personal attacks bro , berating the subject and opposing the idea is ok , but personal attack is just wrong
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby bendon » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:16 pm

its the same MJ 3 legs, need one more leg, i calling one other friend come and play, afterall still a home game. anything invole money to me is gamble already, but is it open to public?( any ppl can come in), no it's not. you must at least know someone there or the host right? you think the host so stupid invite a stranger to play and doesnt know who is he? because they are not open to public!! yes you're invited, AND is you yourself WILLING to go. so whats the point of talkin so much here? you think host so ENG host game dont collect rake? then how the service come? aircon, food & drinks, some even rebate cabfare, and most importantly a poker table to play poker? please dont be so stingy, want good dont want pay. NOBODY WILL PROVIDE FOOD DRINK ETC FOR FREE!
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby bendon » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:29 pm

Clonz wrote:I agree there is a common misunderstanding on poker players as gamblers...Even though i am a poker player myself...i would still have to think that this yishun place deserves to be termed as illegal....The host knows that there is this grey area part of the law and there have been previous cases of convictions at other raked games.This is a clear sign of a business risk right from the start, so i believe the host is not working and this is his sources of income by hosting a rake game....Seriously the host has decided to earn this money by taking on this risk...and at his hindsight he believe he can somehow convince the general public that its a home and friendly game...Lets get out from the sympathetic view of a fellow poker player and put urself into the position of a judge and how are u going to uphold laws and order to keep this society in place(there are a lot of implications and backlash for every imperfect decisions u made).

(i am not sure about the case but this is what i presume on a general rake games host ,if anyone has more information pls feel free to fill in)

1.He has no job
2.This is his only source of income(yea to cover all those expenses...but he can still live on the excess petty cash amount like i believe 2 k a month is not an underestimation )
3.He host games very regularly(more than twice a week is excess already ...)
4.There are friends of friends and we r having private games(this argument can hardly hold...weak form of argument...even if i give u benefit of the doubt...but when everything adds up...this tilt the scale to 'u r guilty).Bcos u r running a business model here already...and how many of these friends u really know everyone on a close basis(up till a point you are treating most of them more like a customer already than friends friends or close friends.)...come on if u r a judge u would feel that the person is trying to come up with some lame excuse to hide his intent of running a business model...ok seriously i believe there is a grey area....here...the host don't have the whole intention to run as a business model..but he must be thinking...if i can earn money from hobby also not bad ma....u r profiting from here...thats the reason that puts u the negative side


So in order to solve this problem i believe there is a way to do this...its all about the overall image...

I know a group of retirees 'gamble' regularly everyday at public place like void decks and yet police is not going to do anything to them...
They are uncles playing chess for money at void decks...why they dun get caught and why u?


There is another thing i would like to highlight .....If you are hosting a friendly rake games among friends....IF YOU EVER RAKE MORE THAN THE EXTRA RAKE OF 2%...WOULDN'T IT AMOUNT TO STEALING FROM FRIENDS????????????????? Why do we show sympathy to assholes who steal from friends???
Ohh the host can say " i am not the one who is raking,, is the dealer who overrakes" There is this asshole who steals from your friends and if u happen to know it....why shouldn't you carE? Izzit bcos they r customers not friends or my friends dun mind me stealing from them?

Can you imagine how rampant would the rake games situations in singapore would be if the judge determined rake games to be legal?
Although poker is a game of SKILL in the long run, there are still short run variances...and there need to be proper accountability
systems to be setup to accommodate the game.This system is not really any Tom Dick and harry individual can just setup and handle on their own without any conflicts of self interest ....
Ppl do not understand...the grey area is needed to really punish those who really went out of line....and at the same time protect those really truly innocent parties......

If i am the judge.... i would give this group of people verbal warning but i have to let them know...there should not be a repeat of the same offence...i am still sympathetic to them but i also need to uphold a system that would not threaten the stable foundations our society has been built on.


It is obviously illegal, now the issuse was the report to the public from the police was totally incorrect! it said it's open to public( anyone can walk in), with other games like DA xiaO other game machine ETC, which is not ture and its only pure poker inside. they already admited wrong and know its illegal. the most police now over charge them, you guys get it?
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Afternoon » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:44 pm

bendon wrote:its the same MJ 3 legs, need one more leg, i calling one other friend come and play, afterall still a home game. anything invole money to me is gamble already, but is it open to public?( any ppl can come in), no it's not. you must at least know someone there or the host right? you think the host so stupid invite a stranger to play and doesnt know who is he? because they are not open to public!! yes you're invited, AND is you yourself WILLING to go. so whats the point of talkin so much here? you think host so ENG host game dont collect rake? then how the service come? aircon, food & drinks, some even rebate cabfare, and most importantly a poker table to play poker? please dont be so stingy, want good dont want pay. NOBODY WILL PROVIDE FOOD DRINK ETC FOR FREE!


There is no law saying that 1 table of Majong is legal, more than 1 is not. Since the olden days, the police just kept their "1 eye opened, the other eye closed".

Now this Texas poker is a totally new game, this case can also be treated as "Test Water case" on whether 1 table of Texas poker can be "allowed" or not.

What we can do now is help to pray hard.

chenghao wrote:
dun do personal attacks bro , berating the subject and opposing the idea is ok , but personal attack is just wrong


I agree with CH, all kakis can state what your opinions are but please no personal attack or names calling.
Last edited by Afternoon on Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Clonz » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:46 pm

I already mentioned it already, its all about the overall image...YOU ARE PROFITING...its not all about free stuffs or free food...so how do u potray urself in the eyes of the judge?You can come with up many reasons to argue...?Ultimately what are you running from?????Ur conscience or Jail Sentence???? A Judge is not some ah bengs or ah sengs that can be convinced with some warped logic. Anyway the good envrionment with free food and nice stuffs are stuffs host throws in to attract people to their game.IT's a Business Model already....

The host and those got involved ,you have my mental support and sympathies but not my moral support...We have to protect something that is the societal order than your personal self interest....ultimately its a business risk you have to factor in right from the start... i sincerely hope nothing happens to you guys with the exception to those who 'steal' by over raking from friends......
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Clonz » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:54 pm

Seriously i am quited pissed on how the media writes about the whole incident...everyone should be Innocent unless proven guilty and not the other way round...They already issue Death Sentences to those involved parties right from the start. Sorry if i deviate from the thread to discuss something else because there are more things to discuss like how do we go from here as a poker community than just simply showing sympathies around....
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby xiaosan14 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:03 pm

alright i apologize for Naming the person but hope Ppl try to understand that Dont said things that they are not sure of.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Hedge » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:14 pm

How can u say the game is not open to public lol when u guys made post in this forum asking for interested players?
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby dan2167 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:17 pm

Clonz wrote:Seriously i am quited pissed on how the media writes about the whole incident...everyone should be Innocent unless proven guilty and not the other way round...They already issue Death Sentences to those involved parties right from the start. Sorry if i deviate from the thread to discuss something else because there are more things to discuss like how do we go from here as a poker community than just simply showing sympathies around....


totally agree about passing down the "death sentence'. Like someone mentioned in this thread earlier, news are meant for reading, but the truth might not necessarily be as reported. I just don't feel it's right to even report anything concrete or as facts on the news when the case is not closed yet. For all we know, this raid at Khatib may not even be classified as 'busting gambling den' but the media already convinced the public that it is so. It is just not very fair.`
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