About the 'police bust' in yishun

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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Marcus24 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:21 pm

This incident certain created an uproar in the poker community that will echo through for many weeks to come. Now looking beyond on how morally right we individuals think it is or who gives the most sensible opinions here, the most crucial thing that will have long lasting impact on the poker community is the judgement pass down on this case.

I think Afternoon had been trying to emphasis this point. If anyone of you know some basic structure of the English common law system in Singapore, you will know that there is something call "Case Law" that is effective in our law jurisdication. Meaning how this case is handled will lay a standard or basis of how future such cases will be handled. If they are found not guilty or let of with no jail terms etc, it will be really good, cos in future lawyers and judge must take into consideration of how past judgement is make on similar cases. It's like shaping the law base on how each case is being judged.

Given the previous widely known case, at least to the poker community, on what constitutes an illegal gaming house, the word "habitually" and "primarily" use for gaming must be proven. Refer to this paragraph from a previous case (http://www.bluegatepoker.com/ispokerlegal.html).

For premises to be "habitually" used for gaming within the second limb of the definition, it was not enough for the gaming sessions to be frequent. To be a common gaming house, the premises must have been kept primarily for gaming. This was prima facie not the case here. Both companies on the premises were live and substantial companies and had been carrying on business at the premises for about 20 years, and the businesses were genuine and not just a façade for a common gaming house.

Base on case law, I will say that those under prosecution now is not likely to face any harsh sentances. It is not like they are operating an gambling syndicate, although the part on raking will be more touchy. Its young typical adults that frequent players like us know the kind of people they are. I hold an optimistic prediction of the outcome of this case. It might actually turn around and have it's positive effects cos the grey areas that so many of us here are debating about will be put upfront in the limelight to be trash and sort out by the law.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby dan2167 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:26 pm

TO MR HEDGE:
clearly the definition of public seems very disputable to you but that's ok. And it seems apparent that you are not a supporter of rake games and it's ok too. You can enjoy your poker games in alternative settings where you find appropriate. But you must understand that there are players like myself who doesn't mind the rake in exchange for a comfortable game. Even if the host is profiting from it to any extent, we are aware of it. To me, it's like paying for a service. There's no monetary externalities on players who play online or at non rake self deal games.. It's not like tax where you are compiled to pay but not happy with it and so you are complaining. Since you didn't pay for their 'service' then good for you and your saved money. Cheers.

Also, I feel that the reason why people host and/or go to raked games is because, there is no other place with proper tables, chips and dealer to have a nice game of poker, prior to the casino opening in Singapore. Of course, in future if the government is willing to establish poker rooms (following oversea's model) for poker players to play poker at various stakes (not the relatively higher stakes in casinos now), it would be a lovely situation for poker enthusiasts.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby mugiwara84 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:56 pm

Clonz wrote:Seriously i am quited pissed on how the media writes about the whole incident...everyone should be Innocent unless proven guilty and not the other way round...They already issue Death Sentences to those involved parties right from the start. Sorry if i deviate from the thread to discuss something else because there are more things to discuss like how do we go from here as a poker community than just simply showing sympathies around....


ani media savvy person will know that the messages frm the media is shaped by its governing body, which means tt it serves the governing body's agenda. simple example wld be u will onli see reports of ppl who bust their life savings at the casinos but ur nv gonna see a rags to riches story(which i m sure there is at least 1) being published. no point getting angry my fellow kaki, the media can report wad they want n ppl can believe wad they want. those who hav the knowledge will know better, as for those who don't, if they r ignorant enough to believe everything in the media then its their own loss n they deserve to stay in the well tt they live in.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby bendon » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:30 pm

Hedge wrote:How can u say the game is not open to public lol when u guys made post in this forum asking for interested players?

Hi Mr Hedge, from what i know from your previous post you claim that you know the 2 host at yishun. Can you kindly please copy and paste the url of their post asking people to come and play? since you say they open to public.

want good want cheap.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby xiaosan14 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:16 pm

Hedge wrote:How can u say the game is not open to public lol when u guys made post in this forum asking for interested players?


Hi ,
i totally had to agreed with Mr Bendon,since the guy like to post and said things that is have or dont have.and the Word (U guys) is what kind of meaning,is it to said all the ppl posting here are the Host Pls watch your words.And since you not supporting the things Pls stop commenting.We are here to create awareness and give our piece mind Not mean to personal but you claim to know the ppl that get busted,but still talking like nothing.i hope you think before you write anything.we are here to help Poker community IN Spore hope things will get better.My Msg is not meant to hurt anyone but to voice Out Thanks.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Vincc » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:23 pm

Wan Good Wan Cheap wan Safe + Money Back guarantee + lifelong warranty + Bao 3 meals.. anymore?
If possible got free gifts will be better still..

Go play facebook lor..

Wake up la.. It's singapore here..
Last edited by Vincc on Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Afternoon » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:38 pm

Cool it, guys, kindly cease all arguement please.

Thing has already happened, as a pokerkakis, i think we should still help out these guys.

If you are keen to help ... go answer my questions
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Hedge » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:25 pm

I am not against raked games but one that is reasonable and fair. The host raking in 1500 per night just is not sustainable in the long run( and my estimate leans towards the conservative side). Everyone needs to fork in $200 each night and it's even worse if u are a losing player, assuming u play the whole night. Majority of the population just don't make that amt of money to be able to support the income of the host and many social problems like gambling debt are bound to arise. This model is only sustainable if the participating players are affluent and rich which clearly isn't in most cases.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Hedge » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:41 pm

bendon wrote:
Hedge wrote:How can u say the game is not open to public lol when u guys made post in this forum asking for interested players?

Hi Mr Hedge, from what i know from your previous post you claim that you know the 2 host at yishun. Can you kindly please copy and paste the url of their post asking people to come and play? since you say they open to public.

want good want cheap.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3334&p=17111#p17111
Above is the link looking for players for khatib game. The host might differ but the game is the same. Basically most raked games work in a similar model where the host initially try to recruit players from the net. After forming a large enough player base, they will stop posting on the forum unless more players are needed.
At one period such practice is rampant at this forum but it tones down when there was news that a condo was raided and everyone become cautious.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby toothy07 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:13 pm

Hedge wrote:
bendon wrote:
Hedge wrote:How can u say the game is not open to public lol when u guys made post in this forum asking for interested players?

Hi Mr Hedge, from what i know from your previous post you claim that you know the 2 host at yishun. Can you kindly please copy and paste the url of their post asking people to come and play? since you say they open to public.

want good want cheap.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3334&p=17111#p17111
Above is the link looking for players for khatib game. The host might differ but the game is the same. Basically most raked games work in a similar model where the host initially try to recruit players from the net. After forming a large enough player base, they will stop posting on the forum unless more players are needed.
At one period such practice is rampant at this forum but it tones down when there was news that a condo was raided and everyone become cautious.


Yes I did organize games before.
First, this is a poker forum. A place to meet fellow poker players. Where else can be a better avenue to look for local poker players if i am interested to start and play in a ten handed game? Yes, some of us may be strangers at first, but friendships are bonded along the way. Happened to me, not sure for you.
Second, there are non rake self deal games who organize in the exact same way. In this same exact forum.
Bottom line: Trying to organize a poker game works the same way anyhow. With rake, one would expect a dealer etc. Without rake, expect to self deal and buy your own food etc.
Third, posting stopped not because I am losing "recruits" but because we now know enough people and friends to organize among ourselves.

Everyone knows how raked games are organized. There wasn't really a need for you to reiterate for us.

Hedge wrote:I am not against raked games but one that is reasonable and fair. The host raking in 1500 per night just is not sustainable in the long run( and my estimate leans towards the conservative side). Everyone needs to fork in $200 each night and it's even worse if u are a losing player, assuming u play the whole night. Majority of the population just don't make that amt of money to be able to support the income of the host and many social problems like gambling debt are bound to arise. This model is only sustainable if the participating players are affluent and rich which clearly isn't in most cases.


Pls do kindly quote ur statistics.
Thank you. I believe it is only your estimation. $1500 for a 24 hrs game and $1500 for a 6 hrs game makes a lot of difference. And you have to take into account the speed of the dealer. If he is fast, players play more hands, by the 'fair standard' of 3% and below, the host is not extorting you even if he makes more money. He is just lucky to find an efficient dealer. And FYI, casino rakes 5%. Please don't start bringing hosts who over rakes into the picture. There are bound to be a few bad apples.

dan2167 wrote:TO MR HEDGE:
clearly the definition of public seems very disputable to you but that's ok. And it seems apparent that you are not a supporter of rake games and it's ok too. You can enjoy your poker games in alternative settings where you find appropriate. But you must understand that there are players like myself who doesn't mind the rake in exchange for a comfortable game. Even if the host is profiting from it to any extent, we are aware of it. To me, it's like paying for a service. There's no monetary externalities on players who play online or at non rake self deal games.. It's not like tax where you are compiled to pay but not happy with it and so you are complaining. Since you didn't pay for their 'service' then good for you and your saved money. Cheers.

Also, I feel that the reason why people host and/or go to raked games is because, there is no other place with proper tables, chips and dealer to have a nice game of poker, prior to the casino opening in Singapore. Of course, in future if the government is willing to establish poker rooms (following oversea's model) for poker players to play poker at various stakes (not the relatively higher stakes in casinos now), it would be a lovely situation for poker enthusiasts.


Quoting this to ensure you read again and understand. We are aware when we are raked or over raked. For those who remain at the table, they didn't mind. For those who were not happy with it, they left. As you can see in this entire thread, Hedge, several people are trying to make you understand that rake games are for those who know how it works and accept it. It's a mutual understanding.

I get your point that you are not happy with hosts making money. Then just jolly well don't go to their games and support them. And to let you know again, the point of this post initially was not to debate on rake. It was to make a stand against those who believed that a 'gambling den' was busted in Yishun'. We were not a gambling den like the back alleys, we were playing poker like any non rake or rake games. I just wish for justice to be done on that part.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby dan2167 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:16 pm

And basically most UNRAKE game work in the same model as well.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4068
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3645
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4073

So are you saying that these are public gaming house as well?

Mr Hedge, i think you are not getting the whole point of this thread. We are not discussing about how much the hosts are making from raked game. We are discussing how is this case affecting the poker players in Singapore.

1. We are branded as gamblers along to the likes of gamblers from the lanes of Geylang and Deskar Rd.
2. Our home games are now deem as a Organised Gambling Den.
3. Do poker players in Singapore still have places to hone their poker skills if they want to stay on the good side of the law?

One thing I really want to state is, Monetary Values is what makes Poker such an competitive game. Sorry, if this sound offensive to you. Look at quality of the players from "Asian Poker Showdown", I believe many of us thinks that we can select better poker players for the show instead. But why is this so? One of the reasons I can think of is because it is a FREEROLL tournament. Why freeroll? Because our governement are so persistent in taxing a 25% from the prize money if there is any monetary value attached to any tournament in Singapore. Thats why we are seeing the Betfair tourney in 2006 as an one-off event, because it is not worth while for the organiser to organise any tournament in Singapore. Things like these are stopping Singapore Poker Players from achieving great achievements.

For the 1st step, we have to let the society know that we are different from the gamblers at Geylang. Grouping us together with the mahjong players might even make us feel better.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Afternoon » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:34 pm

Yishun kakis,

To a certain extend, you have violated the law. As this is the first case dealing with "Poker", there might still be some ground for you all to defend. (sorry, i just got info from DM that this is not the 1st case)

Be prepared to answer the questions that you all gonna face in court ... reasoning out with kakis get you nowhere but more troubles.

I think you know what i mean, best wishes to you all.
Last edited by Afternoon on Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby teamloyang01 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:01 am

Well we can call the flower by whatever name it is. To the gahment, it is still gambling. If you are wondering how come it is all over the news, this is killing the chicken to show the monkeys. So for those who are thinking of hosting rake games, consider this in your risk management.

How you call the flower is inmaterial. In the States, there are even thesis on whether Poker is a game of chance or of skills. So far, no conclusion but to our conservative gahment, they call it gambling what else can you call it?
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby bendon » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:52 am

Hedge wrote:I am not against raked games but one that is reasonable and fair. The host raking in 1500 per night just is not sustainable in the long run( and my estimate leans towards the conservative side). Everyone needs to fork in $200 each night and it's even worse if u are a losing player, assuming u play the whole night. Majority of the population just don't make that amt of money to be able to support the income of the host and many social problems like gambling debt are bound to arise. This model is only sustainable if the participating players are affluent and rich which clearly isn't in most cases.

Even casino (a proper place to play poker) rake 5%, so what are you expecting? omg.
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