About the 'police bust' in yishun

[zinkboy]

i think most of you here who commented are too close to the subject at hand to discuss it in a rational manner. And here are a few of the really dumb things that have been said here: 1) worst rebuttal ever by pokerdonkey: it's easy to see why private 4d vendors are illegal. Most ppl think it's because it cuts into spools revenue. That while being true, it's a more important fact that private vendors can decide not to pay out jackpots. I'm not even going to try to touch the banks vs loan sharks argument pokerdonkey tried to shove down our throats. It's a comically failed attempt at a strawman argument. sorry for digression from the treads peeps but This is funny. so u are saying if i sign a contract to pay out all jackpots from 4D, i would be legal? and if loan sharks do not use violence and other radical means, and charges interest rates same as banks, does that make them legal too? and tell me y is online betting illegal too and i m not too sure abt this one - playing on poker stars is also in the grey area of legal issues. someone enlighten me. I think he meant one of the reason. Lottery is an extremely profitable business with no real added value. There is no reason for any individual to be able to profit so much tax free just by collecting bets.

[BigBoh]

Can try like this...

if Casinos rake at 5%, we can have a system... one that is created by the Sg Poker Community for the SG Poker Community...

eg.
Aircon - 1%
Dealer - 1%
Drinks - 1%
Proper Table - 1%
Others etc etc - 0.5%
But all-in (no pun intended) below the Standard 5% charged by "legal premises"... just because they got license... hahahaha

So if you wanna operate out of this norm, then it's up to your own risk... if this deemed as the "standard practice"... then if the judge ask, there is some form of basis for defense... right??? We need a committee for this... so who is 德高望重 here??? hahahaha...

singapore is like that one... illegal ---> grey ---> standard practise ---> acceptable ---> legal poker rooms... if bee kok can have, why we cannot have??? at least someone in City Hall take a look at what is happening on the ground...

I have no idea for the <<being bunched as gamblers>> part... cos although i believe poker is a game of skill... but the rush you get from making a successful gamble on the table... you all know what i talking about right??? hahahaha...

my 2 chips worth...

[tedlhw]

Having read through all the posts, i think i need to say this.
I have been to many games many raked, many not.
I have nothing against raked games, and i actually enjoy many of them.
(I am Ted and i think some of you would know me. I do not like to hide behind a computer and be a hero. I like to standby my words)

But i have this to say, we all know why raked games are hosted and why expensive tables/chips are bought to host games.
Yes, because these raked gamesare very profitable.
Now, I do not mind raked games making money, because of the many great advantages as stated.
If fact if you didn't, i would have less great places to play at.
I really wish you well from the bottom of my heart. Hope that you guys will get out of trouble.

But; saying that you are raking to 'cover cost' is just lame and hypocritical.
You are trying to make money-period.
It is no big moral wrong, but it just happens to be illegal. Thats just the way it is.
Go ahead and try to explain to the judge and exploit technicalities to get out of trouble. Thats your perogative.
Coming here to say you are the great guy thats just trying to cover cost for the good of the poker community, er.. lets just say its a bad bluff. I CALL!!!!

I have gone to many non-raked games with serious great and fun guys where i get requested to pay S$5 just to cover cost of drinks.
Now, I know thats not profiting for sure.

[zinkboy]

Having read through all the posts, i think i need to say this.
I have been to many games many raked, many not.
I have nothing against raked games, and i actually enjoy many of them.
(I am Ted and i think some of you would know me. I do not like to hide behind a computer and be a hero. I like to standby my words)

But i have this to say, we all know why raked games are hosted and why expensive tables/chips are bought to host games.
Yes, because these raked gamesare very profitable.
Now, I do not mind raked games making money, because of the many great advantages as stated.
If fact if you didn't, i would have less great places to play at.
I really wish you well from the bottom of my heart. Hope that you guys will get out of trouble.

But; saying that you are raking to 'cover cost' is just lame and hypocritical.
You are trying to make money-period.
It is no big moral wrong, but it just happens to be illegal. Thats just the way it is.
Go ahead and try to explain to the judge and exploit technicalities to get out of trouble. Thats your perogative.
Coming here to say you are the great guy thats just trying to cover cost for the good of the poker community, er.. lets just say its a bad bluff. I CALL!!!!

I have gone to many non-raked games with serious great and fun guys where i get requested to pay S$5 just to cover cost of drinks.
Now, I know thats not profiting for sure.

LOl Great post

[blackchilli]

Ok seriously f this sh**. Come on fellas, we're not supposed to be arguing with each other.









I refuse to believe that luck has anything to do with it. As I mentioned earlier what we need right now is to convince influential people that luck is not a factor in poker. Nanonoko's graph is over several million hands, where's the variance?

We need a couple of solid decent winners who are willing to take the fall if things screw up. There's a professor in NUS who has been writing articles about the stance that the gov in Singapore might take on online gambling. If we can convince him that poker is not gambling, he can write influential articles for us. Another thing we can do is go straight to the NCPG (National Council of Problem Gambling) and ask them how the above graphs are possible if poker is gambling.

I propose we start a group, PPU (poker player's united) or some stupid name like that, meet up and discuss what we can do to bring poker locally to another level. We can't meet up and do things like play poker etc, that's out of the question for now. We need to convince the public and the press that poker has as much skill (or maybe even more skill?) than things like forex etc. There is no monetary instrument in the WORLD where you can put $50 in and slowly build your way up to earn several k a month. Except poker.

Anyone in? No degens please.

[firsttimer]

All casino in Australia actually rack 10% with cap. and some casino like starcity and jupiter charge time charge of $5-$30 depends on your stake.
I say if you want to play poker and have a proper dealer to deal your games. anything below 5% is a steal for live game with dealer.
I did played in yishun before and i found the dealer is not up to standard that i expected when it come to a rack game. but well, i guess i can't complain if it's less then a 5% rack. I do sometime see some pots is over racked as well in those games. i didn't say anything as it's not my pot and i only played once in yishun due to all this.

[colorwolf]

siam baccarat?

[Marcus24]

Want a movement? Want awareness?
Simple..
Seek the media.. Ask the Newpaper/Straits Times to come to this forum and they will have things to write..

Good idea but our views here are not quite united and many personal attacks were made.

WSOP season coming soon liao. I am tempted to take part cos I will be in the US during that period. Not the main event of course but maybe a $1500 buy in side event. Anyone in PKK went before? I never see a medal related to WSOP. Can share experience or start a thread on it?

[melnin0]

Want a movement? Want awareness?
Simple..
Seek the media.. Ask the Newpaper/Straits Times to come to this forum and they will have things to write..

Good idea but our views here are not quite united and many personal attacks were made.

WSOP season coming soon liao. I am tempted to take part cos I will be in the US during that period. Not the main event of course but maybe a $1500 buy in side event. Anyone in PKK went before? I never see a medal related to WSOP. Can share experience or start a thread on it?

I think Bryan Huang has a WSOP medal.

[necrohavoc]

I think we should be positing that poker can be an activity that allows for more skill involvement as opposed to chance.

However, proponents of the activity may not necessarily have the talent needed for such skills or be falsely led (maybe small sample size, good runs) into thinking one has such skills. Since in most cases like other activities, only a small percentage are actually good enough to make a living off it, the rest are not good enough (yet?) or simply think so.

Perhaps it is less forgiving in Poker as compared to other activities such as Tennis or Bowling, not having the strength/stamina/technique to reach a high level in those activities is more forgivable than in Poker, since it usually involves a sum of money and less skill in one's game invariably implies more luck involved.

So what happens is that in the end Poker itself can be regarded as a game of skill, but since not everyone can achieve results where by one is "reasonably skilled", if such a convention is present in the first place, most poker players will be regarded as not skillful ergo..taking a good dose of chance..ergo...gambling/gamblers.

I reckon this might be the inevitable truth.

[zinkboy]

I believe nobody is disputing whether poker is a game of skill or not. Clearly the issue here is to resolve whether raked games should be legalized or not. Yes for the select few and the host they will make money in the long run from these games but for the majority, it will be no different from going to a casino. There is likely to be a lot of gambling debt and social problems involved which clearly the govt wants to avoid.

[SonicThunder]

Here's my 2 cents' worth. From what I understand, if the game is by-invitation-only (as in the host personally knows all the players and vice-versa), and it is not open-to-public-walk-in-also-can kind of game, and the place MUST be where the host actually stays, then it is not illegal.

On the other hand, there are other grey areas which, I think, is open to interpretation. Things like rakes, dedicated/professional/part-time dealer, full poker table..etc..may make it difficult to explain to the authorities that it is a home game.

In any case, Yishun is not the first poker-room, and will not be the last.
Good luck, everyone, and shall sign-out with a nice little quote...

"To err is human, to check-raise is divine."......SonicThunder

[s0ichir0]

from an objective point of view, it would be hard for the courts to rule in the favour that RAKED GAMES are legal because it would be so hard to administer and regulate...

also one key point: POKER INVOLVES MONEY, no matter how you argue whether it's skill or pure gambling, in cases where money is involved, it is hard for the judge/media/reports to tell those normal layman citizens in singapore that its not gambling...MONEY is a very sensitive issue i would say..

lemme try to link it to something and see if it makes sense:
- playing football is definitely legal, different players have different skills, and players definitely count on more skill than luck in order to defeat the other team [same as poker]
- but if you side-bet with other ppl then it becomes illegal becos MONEY is involved
- in the case of poker, if no money involved than of course easier to defend yourselves, but we all know that money is what makes poker more exciting and ppl play more seriously..however, the normal ppl who don't play poker will still see it as "gambling" because money is involved..

with that being said, hope the people involved can get a good lawyer and pray for the best...

peace out.

[blackchilli]

I believe nobody is disputing whether poker is a game of skill or not. Clearly the issue here is to resolve whether raked games should be legalized or not. Yes for the select few and the host they will make money in the long run from these games but for the majority, it will be no different from going to a casino. There is likely to be a lot of gambling debt and social problems involved which clearly the govt wants to avoid.

The bolded part is an issue I think. I'm surprised there are still some people here who consider poker gambling. Putting that aside, we can't just jump to raked games since we 'assume' the public and the government agrees that poker is a skill game. They don't, so how can they legalize raked games?

We somehow need to convince people that poker is like forex, stocks etc. Those aren't gambling even though it involves poker, why should poker be gambling?