About the 'police bust' in yishun

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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby support » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:38 pm

Raking is illegal Period.

Let's take a few "gambler friendly" countries for example.

A quick search under Home raked games in :

Australia : http://adelpoker.blogspot.com/2009/08/i ... south.html = > illegal
Canada : http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 906AAjoMv8 = > illegal
USA : http://www.worldcasinodirectory.com/ame ... oker-games => illegal (some states even ban "unraked" games)

According to their laws, home games are covered under social gaming.
Social gaming means that the host is NOT allowed to make a profit under any circumstances while the game is going on, even from not-raking the game (by selling products such as drinks and cigars on the sideline for providing venue).

Singapore doesn't have very clear laws regarding raking but it's very obvious from the above countries that SG will follow similar standards if they have to. Somehow our police is really quite relaxed to let raking carry on already... above countries will raid rake games upon discovery. The more raked games that pop up the faster they will study and conclude similar laws.

Note that casinos and poker houses adher STRICTLY to their government standards (and casino ethics) and pay EXPENSIVE licenses for raking their players, with the appearance of RWS & MBS this also means that our casinos will be pressuring (and possibly helping) the gov to stop home raking.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby chenghao » Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:22 am

ideally the model for future games will be those of social games.

the arguments for raked game : comfort of dealer , nice table/ chair / cards/chips. Air conditioned ,

Two types of costs : Fixed costs and running costs.

Fixed costs are things like Table , chairs , chips

Running costs are things like Utilities , Dealer's pay , Food's tabs etc. new Cards etc.

For fixed costs , once accumulated can be neglected.
For running costs , a self sustainable model can be achieved.

Fixed costs can be contributed by the winner(s) of the session instead of being borne by the host only.
Running cost should be contributed by everyone in the session whether win or lose.

they can contribute either by dealer raking 2% and let the funds settle it. ( host)
or they can estimate and give more @ the start of the session ( when everyone is still flushed with cash) excess will be left with the host / fund to be used for a freeroll session at the end of the month where all expenses are paid
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby s0ichir0 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:22 am

support wrote:Raking is illegal Period.

Singapore doesn't have very clear laws regarding raking but it's very obvious from the above countries that SG will follow similar standards if they have to. Somehow our police is really quite relaxed to let raking carry on already... above countries will raid rake games upon discovery. The more raked games that pop up the faster they will study and conclude similar laws.


this i totally agree, RAKE games will definitely be illegal and i do not think home rake games will be legalized by the govertment regardless of whatever the rake structure/rake amount is...
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Brasstal » Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:13 pm

Hi guys just chanced about this thread after a fellow Kaki told me about it.

With regards to Poker as a Game of skill, it really is debatable. I think Necrohavoc has put it best, it depends on how u approach the game. Its the same as trading forex online etc etc, its all calculated risk and its a thin line between gambling/risk taking. Needless to say I make a living off it and I treat it as a game of skill ie. calculted risk.

It really does not matter what we think of it. Its what others think of it. To be honest guys, 5 years ago, i tell pple that I play poker for pocket money - they brush it off. 4 years ago - i tell others im paying college fees with that - they think im lucky. 3 years ago - i tell others i bought a car with that? - they think im really lucky. 2 and 1 years ago - my "streak" carries on and i get sponsored. Slowly bit by bit my relatives and friends do believe that I can be making a living off this and it truly is a game of skill. Thank God for their support or else it would be hard to do this for a profession!

But - hey we can spend years convincing someone. Why should we? Let them think what they want and we just do the best we can to abide by the law. We live in Singapore. Arguments can be made on how strict the government is and how biased they can be on certain things. Fact is? I love my country, and its a neverending debate on how they handle matters. I am a Singaporean and I choose to live by the law. Just as how i respect the law of other countries when I visit. Laws are there for a reason. If you want to bend it, fight against it, work around it, go do it at your own cost.

Live games were rampant for whatever reasons? Fine the authorities did nothing. Let me ask you, how many owners of these raked games can honestly touch their hearts, and say "im raking this game not for profit?". Doing it for profit - in my view, is nothing wrong at all. People have to stay up late, provide a service, dealers, food, drinks. However it is AGAINST the LAW. Period. Its a risk they are willing to take. bad luck for getting caught.

In my view "ABOUT THE POLICE BUST" in Yishun - serves as a warning. That raked games will not be tolerated. Can you imagine yourself as an undercover. U get asked by ur boss to infiltrate a game. The game host collects $20 from everyone. That $20 provides a dealer, food, and drinks. When you report to your inspector, you can comfortably tell him that "Sir they are just gambling amongst friends, the host gets $20 but really its just a nominal fee, although they do transact in cash, i don't see it as something rampant and damaging to lives".

Versus

"Sir they announce their games on websites, they rake certain % and make more then $1k a night, credit is freely given especially to regulars, they make a lot of noise and games stretch till 6am, players who are married, have jobs go to work tired the next day, and the games carry on 3-4 times a week. Hosts try their best to reach out to players, and rakeback is given and perks are given to encourage players to come. They also have mahjong sessions while waiting for fellow players, sometimes they play sikipi after pokersessions and blackjack and baccarat. They do flips, especially when its late and everyone is on tilt. Players lose money they do not have."

Of course the GSB is definitely no morale court. They can very well take action on both. But which puts poker players in a bad light?

At the end of the day, its really bad luck. These things happen in casinos all the time. Tilt, noise, money lose, casinos making from their edge/rake. It just boils down to - The Law.

What we can do for now in my view is : Come together and play friendly games. For those who truly have a love for the game, I am sure reaching out to each other is not hard at all. Play friend games amongst yourselves, be it for serious money or not, no credit should be given and pelase guys, if you are leading a normal life, do not let Poker turn it upside down.

For those who feel they cannoy find "large" enough games or "soft" gambling games as compared to the raked houses - do yourself a favour, travel to a legal venue such as Macau/Australia/Vegas. If you do carry on playing the raked houses, its just a risk you're willing to take. To be honest, I wouldn't mind taking that risk if I were to relocate back to Singapore. To each his own.

Debating here if its a Skill game or not, will not change the government's views overnight. Lets just hope that over time, Poker will be legalized here. We all fell in love with the game, why can't the rest of Singapore do so as well? Just give it time. We all know that poker eventually will be spread here. Give it time to grow, let us all live to the best we can according to the law. Should we take any risk within grey areas, its ours to take.

Im not even surewhat im babbling about, just my thoughts. Probably wun regret it after360mins because in my view, everyone has their reasons for doing things. Just got to live with it.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby cianopher » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:53 pm

nice one bryan.

yes i truly agree. no more illegal rake games and if you want to play in a professional environment, go to macau :D
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Brasstal » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:18 pm

not exactly NO MORE raked games

Its fine to have them but just got to deal with the consequences - if any.

The best situation would be that the yishun host does not get into any trouble - but hopefully that does not give the green light for raked houses to go crazy. Rather so, serve as a warning and make private games become truly private games and not places to degen.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby andybian » Sun May 02, 2010 8:31 am

tedlhw wrote:Having read through all the posts, i think i need to say this.
I have been to many games many raked, many not.
I have nothing against raked games, and i actually enjoy many of them.
(I am Ted and i think some of you would know me. I do not like to hide behind a computer and be a hero. I like to standby my words)

But i have this to say, we all know why raked games are hosted and why expensive tables/chips are bought to host games.
Yes, because these raked gamesare very profitable.
Now, I do not mind raked games making money, because of the many great advantages as stated.
If fact if you didn't, i would have less great places to play at.
I really wish you well from the bottom of my heart. Hope that you guys will get out of trouble.

But; saying that you are raking to 'cover cost' is just lame and hypocritical.
You are trying to make money-period.
It is no big moral wrong, but it just happens to be illegal. Thats just the way it is.
Go ahead and try to explain to the judge and exploit technicalities to get out of trouble. Thats your perogative.
Coming here to say you are the great guy thats just trying to cover cost for the good of the poker community, er.. lets just say its a bad bluff. I CALL!!!!

I have gone to many non-raked games with serious great and fun guys where i get requested to pay S$5 just to cover cost of drinks.
Now, I know thats not profiting for sure.



To Ted: Happen to read this thread and realise $5 fee seems familiar... hmmm i may be hosting less often in future, and i feel sad realising i could not gather much with friends (personal or known through poker kaki).

Anyway i personally feel its such a nuisance to host a game when you don't earn at all, as i need to post in poker kaki forum for new players, sms friends (which cost me 5cent each sms), organizing number of people to come at certain time ( in order not to let the game be too short handed), cleaning up of my house for 30 minutes after the game, pay my electrical bill which will normally surge up $100-$150 more.

Guys out there trust me, your head will be totally blew away if you wanted to host a Non rake game hosting it in your own place. If you got a maid, free sms, a personal secretary whom will lias with all the kakis, then host it yourself, otherwise forget it because its damn troublesome.

Just 2 cents to share (hosting non rake self deal game since Aug 2007)
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby tedlhw » Tue May 11, 2010 9:09 pm

andybian wrote:
tedlhw wrote:Having read through all the posts, i think i need to say this.
I have been to many games many raked, many not.
I have nothing against raked games, and i actually enjoy many of them.
(I am Ted and i think some of you would know me. I do not like to hide behind a computer and be a hero. I like to standby my words)

But i have this to say, we all know why raked games are hosted and why expensive tables/chips are bought to host games.
Yes, because these raked gamesare very profitable.
Now, I do not mind raked games making money, because of the many great advantages as stated.
If fact if you didn't, i would have less great places to play at.
I really wish you well from the bottom of my heart. Hope that you guys will get out of trouble.

But; saying that you are raking to 'cover cost' is just lame and hypocritical.
You are trying to make money-period.
It is no big moral wrong, but it just happens to be illegal. Thats just the way it is.
Go ahead and try to explain to the judge and exploit technicalities to get out of trouble. Thats your perogative.
Coming here to say you are the great guy thats just trying to cover cost for the good of the poker community, er.. lets just say its a bad bluff. I CALL!!!!

I have gone to many non-raked games with serious great and fun guys where i get requested to pay S$5 just to cover cost of drinks.
Now, I know thats not profiting for sure.



To Ted: Happen to read this thread and realise $5 fee seems familiar... hmmm i may be hosting less often in future, and i feel sad realising i could not gather much with friends (personal or known through poker kaki).

Anyway i personally feel its such a nuisance to host a game when you don't earn at all, as i need to post in poker kaki forum for new players, sms friends (which cost me 5cent each sms), organizing number of people to come at certain time ( in order not to let the game be too short handed), cleaning up of my house for 30 minutes after the game, pay my electrical bill which will normally surge up $100-$150 more.

Guys out there trust me, your head will be totally blew away if you wanted to host a Non rake game hosting it in your own place. If you got a maid, free sms, a personal secretary whom will lias with all the kakis, then host it yourself, otherwise forget it because its damn troublesome.

Just 2 cents to share (hosting non rake self deal game since Aug 2007)
Andy


HI Andy, not sure if I've been to your game.
But its true, its damn troublesome to host...
I have given up hosting cos its so hard to coordinate everyone!!!
They don't reply you and then suddenly turn up....
Worse still, you have to clean up after that. Provide coffee, drinks aircon some more...
Plus many of my friends have rubber time.
Means i spend the whole night waiting for them.
If you happen to lose that night through a bad beat, wah the feeling is very shitty....
Never earn a single cent somemore

Thats why raked games serve a purpose, they serve a need.
In my opinion, they deserve to make the money they make, but i just couldn't stand the "we are hosting to cover costs" argument.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby ryojin84 » Thu May 13, 2010 1:30 am

it'll be hard to wriggle out of the definition of "gaming"

"gaming" , with its grammatical variations and cognate expressions, means the playing of any game of chance or of mixed chance and skill for money or money’s worth;
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby tianci88 » Wed May 19, 2010 6:03 pm

raked game is actually good. i do not play non-rake game cuz mostly u have to self deal and the enviornment sucks totally. lets say this, rake game only concern u when u win the pot and if the pot is not yours then why bother how much they rake. even if they over-rake or wat so be it. give the dealer or host credit for dealing so long, counting chips, side pot, kena fuck when bad beat, drinks spill over need to clean and etc. if no rake who will wanna host??? who in this world is so nice to host a game then clean up later after the game and still gotta fork out money to pay the electricity all this. come on bro, u can raise pre flop, bet on flop,turn and river but u keep arguing about the 3%, 5% or 10% rake. don be so petty la, its just like ppl always say in hokkein (save money on meal and gamble big). u can buy in $300-$1000 stakes but they over-rake u $5 or $10 u cry father cry mother.

i am not a host but i always play till game break so i know host really jia lat after game break.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby eastsidefish » Wed May 19, 2010 7:11 pm

host with a risk. be proactive, not reactive. dont whine after u get caught
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby mrballs » Sat May 22, 2010 1:56 pm

any games that involve the host collecting commission or rake, whether it's poker, blackjack, uno, monopoly, risk. it doesnt matter the game. all that matters is the ILLEGAL collection of private commission without a paid license from the government.

and by the way, people who thinks rake is okay, 2% 3% 5%. seems very little. yes it is little if it actually IS those percentages. but the fact of the matter is, hosts instruct their dealers to OVERRAKE every opportune moment they have. i've a few friends who hosts, and when i look at how much they've collected in 6-9hrs of 1/2 play. it shocks me. 6hrs, about 1k rake is the norm. that's 5 buy-ins at 1/2 stakes. insane. potentially 5 players have to rebuy to feed the rake, so where the hell is the profit for the players going to come from?

only reason i play at raked games is for leisure, when im bored and lastly to support my friends who host. but if u are looking at poker as a revenue generating source, go online. it's faster, rake's fixed, u get rakeback, play from the comfort of your home, whenever u want. best of all, it's safe. at least for now, in singapore.
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby J-ustin-lee » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:04 am

Anyone know wad happen to the host and all the players?
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Re: About the 'police bust' in yishun

Postby Afternoon » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:06 am

Mr007 wrote:Wan Good Wan Cheap wan Safe + Money Back guarantee + lifelong warranty + Bao 3 meals.. anymore? If possible got free gifts will be better still..
Go play facebook lor..


You sure Facebook got meh ?
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