Micro limit players like flush. Frustrating!

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Micro limit players like flush. Frustrating!

Postby Wands » Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:05 pm

Hi to all,

Got to ask the experts here a question.

How do you deal with someone who likes to aim for their flush at the turn or river? I've go all in at the turn and he still calls, letting him hit a flush at the river. really..I hate the river. how do you deal with such plays?

***** History for hand R5-60671903-28 *****
Start hand: Sun Jun 13 00:49:55 GMT+0800 2010
Table: Sucre [60671903] (NO_LIMIT TEXAS_HOLDEM $0.02/$0.04, Real money)
User: Hero
Button: seat 2
Players in round: 5
Seat 3: HottePot ($4.17)
Seat 6: bkrum ($3.27)
Seat 8: mixshot ($4.99)
Seat 10: nur plastik ($4.99)
Seat 2: Hero ($3.91)
HottePot posts small blind ($0.02)
bkrum posts big blind ($0.04)
---
Dealing pocket cards
Dealing to Hero: [Ts], [Tc]
mixshot calls $0.04
nur plastik calls $0.04
Hero raises $0.16 to $0.16
HottePot folds
bkrum calls $0.12
mixshot calls $0.12
nur plastik calls $0.12
--- Dealing flop [Td], [Ad], [5s]
bkrum checks
mixshot bets $0.50
nur plastik folds
Hero raises $1 to $1
bkrum folds
mixshot calls $0.50
--- Dealing turn [Qc]
mixshot bets $0.70
Hero raises $2.75 to $2.75 [all in]
mixshot calls $2.05
--- Dealing turn [Qc]
--- Dealing river [8d]
---
Summary:
Main pot: $8.16 won by mixshot ($7.76)
Rake taken: $0.40
Seat 3: HottePot ($4.15), net: -$0.02
Seat 6: bkrum ($3.11), net: -$0.16
Seat 8: mixshot ($8.84), net: +$3.85, [Kd], [7d] (FLUSH ACE)
Seat 10: nur plastik ($4.83), net: -$0.16
Seat 2: Hero ($0), net: -$3.91, [Ts], [Tc] (THREE_OF_A_KIND TEN)
***** End of hand R5-60671903-28 *****
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Re: Micro limit players like flush. Frustrating!

Postby guanie » Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:56 pm

its like buying 4d, everyone knows the odds are bad, but ppl still buy and they do strike once in awhile. so would u rather be singapore pools or the bettor?

and i will be standing on my chair fist pumping real hard when i get called on the turn.
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Re: Micro limit players like flush. Frustrating!

Postby chenghao » Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:39 pm

reload and play more against him . he got lucky
Dun like your flop min raise though.
Preflop there was already $0.66 in the pot
flop he led out 0.50 and you min raise him , so the pot is $2.16 and it cost him $0.50 to win $2.16 , would prefer if u raised more then min to protect your hand.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

44 games 0.009 secs 4,888 games/sec

Board: Td Ad 5s Qc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 77.273% 77.27% 00.00% 34 0.00 { TcTs }
Hand 1: 22.727% 22.73% 00.00% 10 0.00 { Kd7d }


---
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Re: Micro limit players like flush. Frustrating!

Postby Wands » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:12 pm

So with a 10,10 how much should I raise to usuially? 5 BB?
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Re: Micro limit players like flush. Frustrating!

Postby axel » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:45 pm

Preflop raise is fine, I usually make it 3bb + 1bb for every limper.

On the flop villian donks out, that is usually a fish's way to set his price for drawing or betting some mid pair hand "to see where he stands." You have a set and you just minraise him instead of raising to an appropriate amount to deny him odds to draw.

Board: Ad Td 5s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 74.444% 74.44% 00.00% 737 0.00 { TcTs }
Hand 1: 25.556% 25.56% 00.00% 253 0.00 { Kd7d }

Villian is around 25% to win, so your raise size needs to make it worse than 3-1, so it should be at least $1.33. I'll make it to around $1.50 so that I can shove the turn for less than a potsize bet if villian checks.
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Re: Micro limit players like flush. Frustrating!

Postby Wands » Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:26 pm

Good analysis. But you know, some players just call only..they don't care about the odds of winning, even if i go all in at the flop, I beelive he would call..well..what can I do..sigh..

This situation happens like..3 or 4 times in different tables... I was WTF...another flush at the river again?! Donks will just keep calling to river to try to aim their flush...they dont seem to care about the pot odds..does it happens to you guys?
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Re: Micro limit players like flush. Frustrating!

Postby axel » Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:18 pm

It happens all the time, that's why you need a proper bankroll to play. If these players call with no regard of pot odds, in the long run they will lose.

Wands wrote:Good analysis. But you know, some players just call only..they don't care about the odds of winning, even if i go all in at the flop, I beelive he would call..well..what can I do..sigh..

If I know he'll call all the time I go allin on the flop, I'll definitely shove all the time.
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Re: Micro limit players like flush. Frustrating!

Postby TCM » Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:59 pm

WOW axel you must be a poker pro...
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Re: Micro limit players like flush. Frustrating!

Postby guanie » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:30 am

Wands wrote:Good analysis. But you know, some players just call only..they don't care about the odds of winning, even if i go all in at the flop, I beelive he would call..well..what can I do..sigh..

This situation happens like..3 or 4 times in different tables... I was WTF...another flush at the river again?! Donks will just keep calling to river to try to aim their flush...they dont seem to care about the pot odds..does it happens to you guys?


go to loyang tau peh kong more and tpk will bless u with divine powers to siam all the suckouts in poker.
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Re: Micro limit players like flush. Frustrating!

Postby LunarWolfspirit » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:47 am

Some important takeaways from Super/System is that:

1. You cannot bluff calling stations
2. Poker is about playing the player

So I guess one way that you could see it was that, although you might have made the statistically right play, you should have gone all-in with the expectation that he would call. The rest of it is up to variance and suck-outs are all part of the process :)
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Re: Micro limit players like flush. Frustrating!

Postby PokerChump » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:56 pm

raise on flop, let 1 card peel off. no flush still. then shove all in.
chances are that they will fold. if board pairs on turn then make them pay a little more to get their flush.
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Re: Micro limit players like flush. Frustrating!

Postby chenghao » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:24 pm

oh and do take note of him:

from http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/mi ... dr-332863/

3. Overpays to draw.

This is another of my favorite type of player. You'll raise 3xBB from the cutoff, they'll call in the big blind with JT. The flop comes down Q54, giving you top pair (let's suppose you had KQ) and him a draw. He checks. You bet 6 BB into the 6.5BB pot. He calls. The turn is a harmless 7. He checks. You bet 14 BB into the 18.5BB pot. He calls. The river is the K. He now wakes up and bets 28 BB into the 46.5BB pot. You're probably beaten, but you have a good bluff catcher, so you call and he shows you his flush.

Take a note! This guy way overpays to try and hit a flush. In the future, when you find a situation against him when it's likely he's drawing, you can just fire pot-sized bets and expect him to call; and not only that, but if his draw does come in, you can shut down with confidence unless you have a monster or a good redraw.

Note that these guys also don't raise their draws; they just call and call, gambling, playing the slot machine, waiting to see whether they strike it big. It's a win-win situation when you play your top pair hands against these guys, really; they're happy the one time in three or four that their draw makes it, and you're happy because on average you're taking them to the cleaners by overcharging them to draw.

4. Addicted to the flush.

This is a habit I've noticed among a small but not insignificant subsection of uNL players: They pay way too much attention to the flush. This has three important ramifications:

1. They play too much suited junk like J9, trying to hit a flush. (They ESPECIALLY play ANY suited ace for almost any price.)

2. They either overpay to draw (see note #3 above) or jam their flush draws too much, making it easy for you to pick off their semibluffs. Mostly the flush addicts just call and overpay to draw, because they want to make their flush before they start betting or raising.

3. They're easy to bluff out of pots when the third flush card hits and they don't have the flush draw. They tend to assume you play the way they do, so you must have the flush if you bet at such an obviously scary card. I've seen flush addicts fold to a turn bet when the third flush card comes down and then actually flash top pair/good kicker! You know, they're showing you how smart they are, you can't value town them with your 'obvious' flush.
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Re: Micro limit players like flush. Frustrating!

Postby kilerkido » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:43 pm

He has 13 outs :) Its not hard to see why he called :)
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Re: Micro limit players like flush. Frustrating!

Postby Vinally » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:17 pm

flush draw is very common nowsday.

He got lucky but will lose in long run. nothing wrong with your play except your min-raise which i don't like.

:)
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