did i play badly? i really have no idea

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did i play badly? i really have no idea

Postby imbaikun » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:36 pm

Full Tilt Poker Game #22167342259: Table Fresh Sun (6 max, shallow) - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:24:37 ET - 2010/07/08
Seat 1: HERO ($49.90)
Seat 2: Bari Bari Bari ($40)
Seat 3: johnnashfcup ($40)
Seat 4: VILLAN($62.80)
Seat 5: CLAYTON VIII ($77.55)
Seat 6: Sammy Oufack ($54.05)
johnnashfcup posts the small blind of $0.50
VILLAN posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [8h Jh]
CLAYTON VIII raises to $2
Sammy Oufack folds
HERO calls $2
Bari Bari Bari folds
johnnashfcup folds
johnnashfcup adds $0.50
VILLAN has 15 seconds left to act
VILLAN raises to $7
CLAYTON VIII folds
HERO calls $5
*** FLOP *** [9h Kc 9s]
VILLAN checks
HERO checks
*** TURN *** [9h Kc 9s] [Th]
VILLAN has 15 seconds left to act
VILLAN bets $11
HERO calls $11
*** RIVER *** [9h Kc 9s Th] [Js]
VILLAN has 15 seconds left to act
VILLAN bets $25
HERO has 15 seconds left to act
HERO calls $25
*** SHOW DOWN ***
VILLAN shows [6s 5h] a pair of Nines
HERO shows [8h Jh] two pair, Jacks and Nines
HERO wins the pot ($85.50) with two pair, Jacks and Nines
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $88.50 | Rake $3
Board: [9h Kc 9s Th Js]
Seat 1: HERO showed [8h Jh] and won ($85.50) with two pair, Jacks and Nines
Seat 2: Bari Bari Bari (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: johnnashfcup (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: VILLAN (big blind) showed [6s 5h] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 5: CLAYTON VIII folded before the Flop
Seat 6: Sammy Oufack didn't bet (folded)

After the hand, villan accuse me of being a donk and i really dono if i did played my hand properly. pls feel free to comment. thanks
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Re: did i play badly? i really have no idea

Postby axel » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:10 am

1. Calling villian's 3bet squeeze vs UTG and CO with J8s preflop with shallow effective stack sizes is probably not a good idea to begin with.
2. So you turn a straight flush draw, but you decided to play fit or fold and flatcall instead of going all-in?
3. Calling river with J pair no kicker, what can you beat on that kind of board?

Unless you have any specific reads or stats on villian, I think the hand is misplayed on every street.
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Re: did i play badly? i really have no idea

Postby chenghao » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:16 am

Play with a purpose
Ask yourself what do you want to play the hand for , how to extract the most in what situation against who ?
easiest example : i want to play 55 to hit a 5 (set) against a tight aggressive player who will spew off all his chips and let me stack him with top pair top kicker and such.

U play J8suited to hit the flush ? the 8 ? the J ? or the straight ?

U hit flush , the higher flush would eat you up , you hit Trip 8 or trip Jacks ? the other guy would have you out kicked
what if you flop a straight ? board comes T9Q ? u also fear getting outdrawn / higher straight from JK . this sort of hand best to hit rainbow 2 pair , will be harder to guess

____________________
Preflop either you reraise with your J8 , or you fold , you should call only if you plan to outplay/outflop/outbet villian(s)

Take a note that when this villian light 3 bet ( 3 betting with marginal hands with the purpose of taking it down @ that point compared to 3betting for value like with AA KK QQ AK etc) he takes time to think if he wants to do so , so the next time he reraise preflop before the timer , he has a good hand.

for this hand , K99R , its actually a good flop for him to cbet, why he didn't do so beats me. While its unlikely he hits , its just as unlikely that you hit the flop too.
which would he check the flop ? he could be trying to slow play a flopped monster like KK into K99 , A9 suited etc.
or he could really be afraid of the 9/k with things like a lower pocket or missed his big cards like AQ , AJ , AT , QJ , JT ,
You check behind.

On the turn , a [Th] Then he bets , what is the reason he bets? probably hoping you missed and so you will fold but you have an open ended.

River he barrels again , trying to scare you out , you call.

@ this point , what hands do you really beat ?

AT , T8 , 22- 88 , some weird suited connector.
your hand really is just a bluff catcher.
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Re: did i play badly? i really have no idea

Postby imbaikun » Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:00 am

ok thanks alot for the hand analysis. i just got exposed to alot things i never knew, perhaps he's right. im a donk for now.
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Re: did i play badly? i really have no idea

Postby Vinally » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:18 am

imbaikun, nothing wrong with your play. Just want to say my thought on this play.

During flop, villian check, which mean 2 purpose, he didn't hit or trying to find out your strength bet. so u check, which make him think you didn't hit either too. Since he is first person to act, he naturally have to cbet on turn, however turn come to give u s8 or flush draw, which give u a reason to call. Then river come with J. he bet 25. U call because you want to or because of the pot size. You win. it is just pure "donk-call" play but u are lucky.

And preflop, villian reraise to 7 which mean that his cards are very strong on his bb position, i put him on the range of AT,AJ, AQ, AK. Your cards are not strong enough to call, unless u are late position.

The best play of this, just fold preflop. :) ha ha. btw, Chenghao analysis is very good.
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Re: did i play badly? i really have no idea

Postby xcaliblur » Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:13 pm

My 2 cents is:
Calling preflop a 3 bet with 8Js is bad play, unless for some reason you know the guy is squeezing. Reason for this is that its the type of hand that most often makes the second best hand~ for example the guy might have an overpair, he might have a Jack with a higher kicker, or might have 2 higher suited connectors. Against a 3 bet its usually better off to fold, especially if you dont have much invested yet.

Having said that once you have called, the turn call was alright seeing that you have the straight and flush draw. The only real hand you are behind is KK and K9 and lets face it he likely doesnt have K9 with the way he plays. But you have to remember that your main aim is to hit your draw.

Thats why i think the river call was bad. On a board of K99TJ theres really not much you can beat against a 3 better preflop, unless its a bluff. Virtually any combination of 2 picture cards beat you, and most people who 3 bet preflop usually have this type of hand. In fact board is just a Q away from a straight.

Of course all these points are moot if you have a some sort of solid read that the guy is purely bluffing but in online play its usually more difficult to tell.

So in short, yes i think you played badly. I think Villain played badly too. If he wanted to bluff, the flop was perfect for a Cbet yet he checked....
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Re: did i play badly? i really have no idea

Postby slkia » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:05 pm

no need to go into details of how you played your hand post flop....

1st and only issue is....why are you flatting the min raise and 3 bet with J8s?

a hand like J8s is good to catch and suck out on big hands cos you are looking to flop a monster and not just top pair....

will a min raise pay u off?

given the villian 3betted from BB, do u think he has a big enough hand to pay u off if u hit?

assuming villian is an avg player, his 3bet range from the BB with one min raiser and one limper can be almost ATC.
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Re: did i play badly? i really have no idea

Postby slkia » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:43 pm

chenghao wrote:U play J8suited to hit the flush ? the 8 ? the J ? or the straight ?

U hit flush , the higher flush would eat you up , you hit Trip 8 or trip Jacks ? the other guy would have you out kicked
what if you flop a straight ? board comes T9Q ? u also fear getting outdrawn / higher straight from JK . this sort of hand best to hit rainbow 2 pair , will be harder to guess


u hit flush and u are afraid of getting eaten up by a higher flush? u might as well not play any suited connectors/one gapper...only play Ax suited. pls fold all ur non nut flushes.

u hit trips and u are afraid of getting out kicked? once again pls only play Ax n hope to hit trip x. pls fold all your trips without ace kicker.

board comes tq9 n u are afraid of getting out drawn? then pls fold all ur flopped straights...

u hit rainbow 2 pair n thats good? how abt AJ8 rainbow....ill be more afraid of being behind on this board than all ur above examples....even on a J82 rainbow board against an over pair do u know whats ur equity?, are u aware the board pairing the 2 will kill u?
____________________

chenghao wrote:Take a note that when this villian light 3 bet ( 3 betting with marginal hands with the purpose of taking it down @ that point compared to 3betting for value like with AA KK QQ AK etc) he takes time to think if he wants to do so , so the next time he reraise preflop before the timer , he has a good hand.


wow....based on ONE hand u get a read already...what if he always incurs time bank before acting? then what now?
issit possible he multi-tables and needs the time?
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Re: did i play badly? i really have no idea

Postby Brasstal » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:44 pm

err you want to know you play badly on?

Preflop, Flop, Turn or river?

PF : Yes, yes yes. Uber bad.

Flop : No comments.

Turn : yes fine no point jamming since you donk your way to the turn and villian plays so weak its a 100% call.

River : Its a bad call in my opinion. You call turn to hit your draw, now your calling cos you have money in the pot. He is betting his Q here and his line taken is in line with KK TT JJ. All these of course assuming he is a random player, your just calling here hoping your J is good.
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Re: did i play badly? i really have no idea

Postby DM101 » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:15 pm

I am not going to comment anything as your hand had been commented by many kakis in previous posts.

Just wanna add one thing, always remember playing poker is like a story telling session.

Every street is like a storyboard....e.g

Preflop - Chapter 1
Flop - Chapter 2
Turn - Chapter 3
River - Chapter 4

There are always reasons for your actions like checking, betting, raising, folding & all in. Very often you need to tell a convinced story so that your opponent would also "BUY" your story and very likely they gotta give up their hands.
If you are a bad story teller, obviously they are not going to believe you and might even outplay you.

Just my 2 cents
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Re: did i play badly? i really have no idea

Postby chenghao » Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:49 am

slkia wrote:
chenghao wrote:U play J8suited to hit the flush ? the 8 ? the J ? or the straight ?

U hit flush , the higher flush would eat you up , you hit Trip 8 or trip Jacks ? the other guy would have you out kicked
what if you flop a straight ? board comes T9Q ? u also fear getting outdrawn / higher straight from JK . this sort of hand best to hit rainbow 2 pair , will be harder to guess


u hit flush and u are afraid of getting eaten up by a higher flush? u might as well not play any suited connectors/one gapper...only play Ax suited. pls fold all ur non nut flushes.

u hit trips and u are afraid of getting out kicked? once again pls only play Ax n hope to hit trip x. pls fold all your trips without ace kicker.

board comes tq9 n u are afraid of getting out drawn? then pls fold all ur flopped straights...

u hit rainbow 2 pair n thats good? how abt AJ8 rainbow....ill be more afraid of being behind on this board than all ur above examples....even on a J82 rainbow board against an over pair do u know whats ur equity?, are u aware the board pairing the 2 will kill u?
____________________

chenghao wrote:Take a note that when this villian light 3 bet ( 3 betting with marginal hands with the purpose of taking it down @ that point compared to 3betting for value like with AA KK QQ AK etc) he takes time to think if he wants to do so , so the next time he reraise preflop before the timer , he has a good hand.


wow....based on ONE hand u get a read already...what if he always incurs time bank before acting? then what now?
issit possible he multi-tables and needs the time?


i am just commenting on possible marginal situations and suggest how he can avoid such situations

i am not telling him not to play suited connectors or gappers , just play whatever he has with a reason.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

17,820 games 0.029 secs 614,482 games/sec

Board: Js 8d 2c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 25.993% 25.99% 00.00% 4632 0.00 { QQ+ }
Hand 1: 74.007% 74.01% 00.00% 13188 0.00 { 8c2s }

of cos note taking is just observing that he does this , his tendencies , whether the observation is repeatable or not is not 100 % guaranteed.
for all we know , he might be engrossed in a msn conversation for that hand and timeout

You brought in quite a few good points too , like playing hands like j8 to flop the nuts against people who can't fold their big pockets / top pair etc.
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