AQs v KK bad beat

Brag about the good, vent over the bad.

AQs v KK bad beat

Postby gunpowder777 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:33 pm

see how the cards dropped, :lol:

Full Tilt Poker Game #26737591824: Table Flash - $0.02/$0.05 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:17:16 CCT - 2010/12/27 [05:17:16 ET - 2010/12/27]
Seat 1: kornel4 ($4.61)
Seat 2: Zenei ($4.71)
Seat 3: igorss1973 ($1.76)
Seat 4: gunpowder777 ($5.25)
Seat 5: Time47 ($10.58)
Seat 6: my bank manager ($4.73)
Seat 7: durirrr ($5.40)
Seat 8: sinhyung ($2.07)
Seat 9: DonKorleone8908 ($5)
sinhyung posts the small blind of $0.02
DonKorleone8908 posts the big blind of $0.05
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to gunpowder777 [As Qs]
kornel4 folds
Zenei folds
igorss1973 raises to $1.76, and is all in
gunpowder777 calls $1.76
Time47 folds
my bank manager folds
durirrr folds
sinhyung folds
DonKorleone8908 folds
igorss1973 shows [Kc Ks]
gunpowder777 shows [As Qs]
*** FLOP *** [2d 8h 8s]
*** TURN *** [2d 8h 8s] [8d]
*** RIVER *** [2d 8h 8s 8d] [8c]
igorss1973 shows four of a kind, Eights
gunpowder777 shows four of a kind, Eights
gunpowder777 wins the pot ($3.36) with four of a kind, Eights
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.59 | Rake $0.23
Board: [2d 8h 8s 8d 8c]
Seat 1: kornel4 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Zenei didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: igorss1973 showed [Kc Ks] and lost with four of a kind, Eights
Seat 4: gunpowder777 showed [As Qs] and won ($3.36) with four of a kind, Eights
Seat 5: Time47 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: my bank manager didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: durirrr (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: sinhyung (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: DonKorleone8908 (big blind) folded before the Flop
gunpowder777
New Fish
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:23 pm

Re: AQs v KK bad beat

Postby chenghao » Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:17 pm

Image

You might want to use a hand converter , nice to see
User avatar
chenghao
Great White Shark
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 10:21 pm
Medals: 3
Chatterbox - Bigga Mouth~ (1) Helpful Kaki (1) Good Seller (1)

Re: AQs v KK bad beat

Postby gunpowder777 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:17 pm

hey chenghao, it realli looks betta! :lol:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

UTG ($4.61)
UTG+1 ($4.71)
Villain (MP1) ($1.76)
Hero (MP2) ($5.25)
MP3 ($10.58)
CO ($4.73)
Button ($5.40)
SB ($2.07)
BB ($5)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with AImage, QImage
2 folds, Villain bets $1.76 (All-In), Hero calls $1.76, 5 folds

Flop: ($3.59) 2Image, 8Image, 8Image (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($3.59) 8Image (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($3.59) 8Image (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $3.59 | Rake: $0.23

Results:
Villain had KImage, KImage (four of a kind, eights).
Hero had AImage, QImage (four of a kind, eights).
Outcome: Hero won $3.36
gunpowder777
New Fish
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:23 pm

Re: AQs v KK bad beat

Postby chenghao » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:01 pm

2nd thing u should do is probably ask yourself "why do i post these hand history ?"

is it

1) i think its hilarious that my AQs is Teh pWnz
2) i think i win money and its fun so i post
3) i want to know whether i made the correct decision or not , in future if i encounter this sort of situation , will i make the best decision?

if its 1) you typically will attract flamers
2) you will feel happy
3) you will improve

A guide to good posting in uNL
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69/mi ... unl-25042/

One hand only per post
Unless you have a history with a player, it is often extremely beneficial to post the hand which gave you your read, or which you feel got under his skin and put him on tilt, or where he stacked off light etc etc. You can say "I noticed such and such about this hand *post hand* and now onto the hand in question". This helps us all to understand your reasoning. Or, you can post two hands where you have the same hole cards, and similar action, yet you are in different positions. You can say "how does my being in position in this hand *post hand* make the optimal play different than when I am OOP in this hand *post hand*?.

Convert your hand history
if nobody can read your post, they wont bother to reply to you

Give reads
1. How have you been playing? (Loose/Tight, Aggressive/Passive)
2. What are your PT3/HEM stats for this session? Overall?
3. How has villain been playing?
4. What are villains PT3/HEM stats for this session? Overall?
5. Have you noticed any betting patterns which villain has? (Calling station, bluff maniac etc)
6. Have you tangled with villain before? Does he have a reason to think a certain way about you?
7. Has villain shown down any odd or non-standard hands, and what did you deduce about this?
8. Is villain playing multiple tables?

etc etc etc.

You get the picture - the more information you can supply us with, the better we can form our own conclusions about the hand.

Outline your thought processes
For example "I usually would just call the turn with TT here but I decided to raise because vs this guy I feel like he can call off with his straight draw, which would be +EV for me. What do you guys think?".

Do NOT post results!!!

This influences the responses you will recieve because people get results oriented, which is very bad poker. You should chop your hand history at the point where you want to ask what to do. For example, you get bet into on the turn, and you want to know whether to fold, call or raise.

Dont make your thread title obvious
Don't influence the minds of the posters, give them a chance to think for themselves.
User avatar
chenghao
Great White Shark
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 10:21 pm
Medals: 3
Chatterbox - Bigga Mouth~ (1) Helpful Kaki (1) Good Seller (1)

Pokerkaki Ads

Postby Pokerkaki Ads

Pokerkaki Ads
Shameless Advertising to keep this site alive

Re: AQs v KK bad beat

Postby gunpowder777 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:17 pm

wow, dinnoe it was so serious in here man. title of this section read:

"Post your unforgettable and memorable hands here to share with the kakis here.
Has the poker gods favor you?"

so i tot it was funny to share the bad beat. sorry to tilt u bro, enough to pull an article from somewhere else. :cry:
gunpowder777
New Fish
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:23 pm

Re: AQs v KK bad beat

Postby chenghao » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:26 pm

for me i will probably never cold call (calling when you put no money into the pot) AQs for no good reason , there is always another hand.

you are at best coinflip vs any pocket pair JJ and below , behind AK , QQ+

quick article for AQs

http://www.pokerlistings.com/strategy/a ... true-value

A-Q's Sticking Points

I'm going to run some scenarios by you here. I'm not worried about getting exact with math - these are meant to be generalizations.

If you raise A-Q pre-flop, you will be up against four different categories of hands:

1. Hands that have A-Q dominated
2. Hands that A-Q dominates
3. Coin flips
4. Rags

1. Hands that have A-Q dominated: AA, KK, QQ, A-K

We can put our A-Q win rate at 0% for AA, KK and QQ. You should be raised out of the pot pre-flop. If you do somehow see a flop, you lose somewhere around 90% the time on average. The big pots you win will be canceled out by the big pots you lose when flopping A-Q against aces or queens.

With A-K it's a little trickier. Let's say you get raised out pre-flop 50% of the time. The other 50% of the time you're seeing variety of flops:

• Ace-high board: you lose significant money

• Queen-high board: you win small money

• A-Q-high board: you win significant money

• A-Q-K high board: you lose significant money

• Flopping straights: you make medium - large money

• Flopping straight draws: you lose medium money

• Flops that miss you: you lose small money

If you just look at the options, you'll see that all the results work to almost cancel each other out. The problem with my little list is that we haven't weighted the options with probability. The odds of you missing everything are by far the highest.

The odds of an ace-high board are more than double those of an A-Q-high board.

The odds of flopping a straight are half those of flopping a straight draw.

Once you weight it, you'll see that A-Q vs. A-K is a very negative EV proposition. Not only do you lose 50% off the bat, out of the other 50% you lose considerable money. This makes our first group of hands less than a 0% win rate, or -EV.

2. Hands that A-Q dominates: A-J, K-Q, A-T, Q-J

All of these hands are similar to the scenario as the A-Q vs. A-K, but in reverse. You dominate all these hands. The only difference is that these hands are weaker, making them more likely to fold to you pre-flop, and less likely to play heavy after the flop. You make less money against any one of these than you lose against A-K.

Collectively they become more profitable than your losses against A-K. This makes the second group of hands a +EV scenario with a positive win rate.

3. Coin Flips: 22-JJ

Even though 22-77 are not in the top 20 hands, in a cash game it still can make sense to see lots of flops with them. People will be calling your single raise with these hands. These are the possible scenarios on the flop (excluding random flushes and straights winning/losing to boats):

* You both flop nothing
* You flop top pair
* Your opponent hits a set, you hit nothing
* You hit top pair or better, your opponent hits a set

When you both flop nothing, I'm going to put it at a 50% win rate. Half the time the player has a low enough pair they will fold; the other half they don't, and won't.

Where you flop the top pair, and they miss, they fold. The times they do call and hit a set vs. the times they do call and miss will even out in the long run.

They hit a set, you hit nothing. You fold.

You hit top pair, they hit a set. You lose significant money.

For the third series of hands, you lose significant money on the whole. There are no scenarios where you will win big pots consistently, but there is a scenario where you will lose them.

If you hit a straight vs. a set, you will win a big pot, but the amount of times you win vs. the times you lose when the board pairs cancel each other out.

4. Rags

These hands all fold to you pre-flop, giving you a 100% win rate, but yielding almost no money.

The Results

1. Hands that have A-Q dominated: -EV (medium loss)
2. Hands that A-Q dominates: +EV (medium win)
3. Coin flips: -EV (large loss)
4. Rags: +EV (very small win)

In all of the scenarios listed, the calculations reveal A-Q's potential for losing significant money in the long run. You have no ability to control what type of hands the other players will be playing against you, forcing you into many -EV situations with A-Q.

The final aspect to discuss is flushes. A-Q suited hitting a flush will have the nuts. The small pots you win will cancel out with the small losses you take chasing and missing (with acceptable odds). When you do hit the flush, you win small to very big pots.

I feel that this aspect of A-Q suited is enough to push the win rate out of the red and into the black. If you only ever played A-Qs in ABC poker against solid ABC players, it would be +EV and A-Qo would be -EV. A combination of both of them should come out somewhere around even.

If you are able to avoid running into sour situations, and only play the pots that are good for you with A-Q, being the top 5% hand it is, it has the potential to make some serious coin.

In the final part of this article, I'll go through some ideas of how to play A-Q. After all, all of this information is useless without a way to put it to use

make decisions on how to play it.

The Middle Hand

As explained in other articles, such as Big Hand, Small Pot Part 2: The Middle Hand, it never makes sense to bet the middle hand.

This is an example of that sort of scenario. A-Q is a high-middle in the world of playable hands, but it's still in the middle nonetheless.

Players new to poker are quick to pick up that A-Q is a top 5% hand, and feel that that number alone should make it a profitable play.

But without the necessary skill, experience and ability to read other players, playing A-Q in early position - or for very new beginners, even playing A-Qo at all - can be a losing play.

Players such as Daniel Negreanu have openly talked about A-Q losing them money long-term and being a trouble hand. But that doesn't mean they won't play it.

Being a top 5% hand, it is statistically profitable, but only if you can dump it when you run into the lose-money scenarios.


How to Play A-Q

I started writing this article to try and hammer out some good ideas and guidelines on how to play the hand.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible to explain in print. From everything I've explained in this article, it becomes clear that to play A-Q profitably, it's a purely situational hand.

You have to play it differently, or not at all, depending on the table you're on and the players you're with.

If you're up against nine players who will only play top-five hands, A-Q is a losing hand. If you're up against players who will play any two cards, the numbers will back up A-Q to make you money.

How you play A-Q on Titan Poker may be completely different to how you would play A-Q on PokerStars.

No matter how you play it, you need to be making information plays. You need some way to get a solid read on what you're up against. It's better to lose two bets pre-flop, or on the flop, than to lose eight bets across five streets.

Early Position

In my first year of poker I quickly noticed A-Q as being a trouble hand for me, and began to experiment with different ways of playing it.

One of the ways I experimented was to limp-reraise A-Q from early position. If your No. 1 goal is to gain information about the other hands, this can be a great way to do it at a low-medium limit No-Limit table.

With the amount of strength shown by a limp reraise, you can be sure the other player has a hand that dominates you if they call or come back over the top. In these scenarios you lose three bets, compared to losing one where you miss or a stack when you hit a setup flop.

One thing to remember with this play, and any information play, is the motives you had for making the play in the first place.

If the person does call you after making the limp reraise, you have to sign right off and be willing to dump the hand no matter what the flop (other than flopping broadway).

Even flopping top two in this scenario will put you at risk of losing your stack against two of the top-five hands, winning nearly nothing against KK and winning small to a stack against A-K.

Remember, with the strength you showed pre-flop, A-K will be less likely to pay you out on an A-Q-2 board. Chances of you having AA or QQ are very real, making it a hard call for them to make.

Making this move is only a good idea against ABC players. ABC players will react to this move exactly in line with the strength of the hand they're holding.

If you attempt this move against tricky players, you can put yourself into poor spots. For example, if you make this move against a player known to raise, bet, call and three-bet light, you will gain no information going to the flop.

You have now built a statistically very large pre-flop heads up pot, with no information in the hand. This makes post-flop decisions very difficult.

Against such a player, if you think hitting your ace or queen is good, the size of the pot will dictate how much it will sting if you're wrong.

Late Position

As in all other aspects of poker, the single most important factor next to the strength of your hand is playing your position.

In late position, I would advocate raising an unopened pot with A-Q almost every time. It is a top 5% hand, and if no one is showing strength, it is most likely best.

If you are behind a raiser, it has to be a read-based play. Against anyone resembling a tight player, it wouldn't be a mistake to muck the hand.

Even if the raiser is a nutbar, you have to remember that even nutbars get dealt monster hands, and they will be raising those just like all the rest.

Playing A-Q in a raised pot is a purely read-based scenario. If you're at a table where you are outmatched, A-Q is better left in the muck, than in your hand.

Even though I would advocate limp-reraising with A-Q in certain situations, I would rarely, if ever, encourage reraising from late position with it. Your reraise is going to force everyone else in the hand to fold to the original raiser, isolating them and you.

Good players here can smooth-call virtually any hand to either set a trap, set up a bluff, or try to crack you. You won't gain enough information from a good player in this scenario to make it a valuable play.

I don't like to have to count on luck to make my hand profitable. Smooth-calling a raise is obviously a poor option. You have no information on the hand by making this move, and are putting yourself into the exact scenarios I listed earlier. Those ended as -EV.

I feel that A-Q is better mucked behind a raise without having a serious read on the other players at the table. If you're able to read them blind, then having A-Q is irrelevant, as your cards no longer matter.

Afterthoughts

A-Q is by far the biggest trouble hand in poker. For this reason alone, unless you have a good reason, and a good spot to play it, it's best left mucked.
User avatar
chenghao
Great White Shark
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 10:21 pm
Medals: 3
Chatterbox - Bigga Mouth~ (1) Helpful Kaki (1) Good Seller (1)

Re: AQs v KK bad beat

Postby chenghao » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:28 pm

its perfectly alright for any reason lol
i was just rereading some stuff too while helping people if they want to improve.
User avatar
chenghao
Great White Shark
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 10:21 pm
Medals: 3
Chatterbox - Bigga Mouth~ (1) Helpful Kaki (1) Good Seller (1)

Re: AQs v KK bad beat

Postby gunpowder777 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:48 pm

wow. i feel like a donk afta reading tt article. thk goodness i'm onli playing 0.02/0.05 for fun. thks for the article chenghao! will onli play aqs if no1 raises next time. :twisted:
gunpowder777
New Fish
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:23 pm

Re: AQs v KK bad beat

Postby chenghao » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:30 pm

gunpowder777 wrote:wow. i feel like a donk afta reading tt article. thk goodness i'm onli playing 0.02/0.05 for fun. thks for the article chenghao! will onli play aqs if no1 raises next time. :twisted:


In general thats ok , but you can always change that rule from time to time depending on a whole lot of circumstances.

good luck at the tables
User avatar
chenghao
Great White Shark
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 10:21 pm
Medals: 3
Chatterbox - Bigga Mouth~ (1) Helpful Kaki (1) Good Seller (1)

Re: AQs v KK bad beat

Postby Afternoon » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Wah ! Chenghao, you really can make people pee on their pants when they are dealt with AQ in future.

"so stressssss ....... AQs again !"
User avatar
Afternoon
Great White Shark
 
Posts: 981
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:28 pm
Medals: 12
Long Jie Participant (1) Genting Poker Tournament (1) Macau Cup Participant (1) APPT Participant (1) Crowned a poker tournament (1) 2nd Place in a poker tourny (1) Reporter - Bringer of news (1) Poker Face (1) Chatterbox - Bigga Mouth~ (1)
Helpful Kaki (2) Good Buyer / Shopper (1)

Re: AQs v KK bad beat

Postby chenghao » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:02 am

Afternoon wrote:Wah ! Chenghao, you really can make people pee on their pants when they are dealt with AQ in future.

"so stressssss ....... AQs again !"


you have to take out your pants , then aim your pee at your pants to pee on your pants wor

if you pee in your pants , at least you dun need to take off your pants while doing so . you do need to change them after that though. :lol: Occupational hazard of someone who teach english :D
User avatar
chenghao
Great White Shark
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 10:21 pm
Medals: 3
Chatterbox - Bigga Mouth~ (1) Helpful Kaki (1) Good Seller (1)


Return to Hand Histories - Good & Bad Beats

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

 

Recent Posts

Subscribe to RSS headline updates from:
Powered by FeedBurner

Site

Subscribe to RSS headline updates from:
Powered by FeedBurner