Using Position To Turn Over Tide of War

Once a competitive card gamer who has tasted success online, Felix divides his time between investing and playing poker. A journeyman who always has time for kakis

Using Position To Turn Over Tide of War

Postby felixleong » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:58 pm

hursday, April 17, 2008


PokerStars Game #16790479323: Tournament #84949999, $30+$3 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2008/04/17 - 06:46:28 (ET)
Table '84949999 22' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 2: deadmoneyjon (1590 in chips)
Seat 3: mathawker (2695 in chips)
Seat 4: kalamitsis (1865 in chips)
Seat 5: TheWoos (2375 in chips)
Seat 6: sjov (1230 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 7: GAWLIARIS (4050 in chips)
Seat 8: Waldo38 (4800 in chips)
Seat 9: pipi486 (4245 in chips)
deadmoneyjon: posts small blind 50
mathawker: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pipi486 [8s Ts]
Dieselpumpe is connected
kalamitsis: folds
TheWoos: folds
sjov: folds
GAWLIARIS: folds
Waldo38: folds
pipi486: raises 200 to 300

T8s on the Button is good enough for me to try a steal
I have a solid TAG image

deadmoneyjon: folds
mathawker: raises 200 to 500

He just came to the table, no really any reads
I double up from him few hands back with my AK making a straight to beat his set of Jacks

Could be really strong hand like AA-QQ sucking me in
Could also be some fish random play

With good pot odds and position, a call is almost a must


pipi486: calls 200
*** FLOP *** [Th 6d 9h]
mathawker: bets 500

A 1/2 pot cbet from him, a sign of weakness since the board is coordinate with flush draw and straightness(T9).
I call hoping to hit my 7 outs(3xT 4x8)
or make a move on the turn if sensing weakness

pipi486: calls 500


*** TURN *** [Th 6d 9h] [Ad]
mathawker: checks

no way an ace hand is gonna check here, signs of weakness indicates me to push him off.
Pot is about 2k and he has about 1.7 left, so 1/2 to 2/3 pot size bet is close to making him all in, so might as well shove.
Fold equity here is pretty high, I might guess 70-80%

pipi486: bets 3245 and is all-in
mathawker: folds
pipi486 collected 2050 from pot
pipi486: doesn't show hand
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Re: Using Position To Turn Over Tide of War

Postby felixleong » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:12 pm

Notice if I did not have position this hand would be completely disgusting to play.

If I were to act 1st on the flop betting out is bad in a sense I have no idea if he's trash or an overpair.
Probably lead out and fold to raise or shutdown if he calls

Checking on the flop is extremely weak and following with a call is bad, cause facing the Ace on the turn will cause me to check again
which will probably lead me to lose control of the pot

Without position, check fold is probably the safest play.

So the whole idea here is to stress the importance of position in critical battles of tournament, especially when a hand can consume such a big portion of your stack~

^_^ feel free to comment
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Re: Using Position To Turn Over Tide of War

Postby ChanGs » Tue May 20, 2008 3:44 pm

i would prefer to raise on the flop.

Hand Range: you said you have no real reads. only one hand you dlb up on him, with him having pocket jacks. but lets give him a hand range anyway, min suited one gap connector to pp to high pp or any 2 face cards.

BB re raise: i think he either has a very strong hand or he is a very weak player, figuring you are on a steal. reraising while giving you the odds to call.

a weak cb on coordinated board : if he hit his set or he has high PP, it would be really funky of his play to trap you on a board like that, also a very bad play. i would like to think he is trying to steal/semi bluff the pot but because of his stack size he don't feel comfortable commiting all his chips. also he would have more fold equity if you were to raise/shove him.

flat calling his cb: you are giving him a chance to hit his outs. lets say he really has an ace. and the turn is an ace, like you said he would bet and most prob you are folding. you could have the chance to end the hand on the flop. i would like to raise him to 1300, almost all his stack. putting the pressure back to him. telling him you are pot commiting yourself and he would have to pay to draw.

Turn: if the ace came and he shove could you call? if he is a bad player he might play AJ, AT or an weak Ace like that. i would like to think the only way you won the hand is because he is bad player that is afraid of losing all his chips.

And yes, you got all that infomation because you are in position, that i can argee very much.
One might argue to take a more conservative line and call to see wad he would do on the turn.
i would beg to differ as i had been commented on my spewy play. =>

feel free to comment
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Re: Using Position To Turn Over Tide of War

Postby newbie » Tue May 20, 2008 7:38 pm

i agree with changs.. i wld've raised the flop for more info. or at least it'll be a turn blocker, no?
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Re: Using Position To Turn Over Tide of War

Postby felixleong » Tue May 20, 2008 7:55 pm

thanks for insights guys, really give me a good idea on what other good ways to play this hand.

Yeah I agree raising on the flop would be a good move too, maybe 2.5x to 3x would be great, its an aggressive move I like a lot too. If it was a cash game I would definitely like to put in a raise to see where I stay and if the signal is clear that I'm beaten, folding is pretty cool and ok for me.

But in a tournament hor cause the pot is like $1050
he bets $500 making the pot $1500 and me with 3700 chips remaining. Calling brings me down to 3200 which to me still decent if I have to fold on the turn.

Raising the flop is a strong and bold move, say a 2.5x raise to 1250 making the pot 2759 and me having like 2k chip remaining.
This flop raise would really makes me feel, very committed and I'll probably have to go to the river with it if he showns an overpair.

All in all, aggressive is good ~ high risk comes with good gains ^_^

cheers
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Re: Using Position To Turn Over Tide of War

Postby vaevictis » Tue May 20, 2008 8:56 pm

yea i like calling on flop and re-evaluate the turn.

Raising on flop is fine but you put yourself in shitty spot with a hand with showdown value and some equity (postflop) when you get b/3b all in.
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Re: Using Position To Turn Over Tide of War

Postby Belousov » Wed May 21, 2008 6:57 am

I really like the call on the flop if you RR and then villain pushes you have to assume you are behind and will have to muck a hand that has decent showdown value. Honestly I don't like the push on the turn here at all. What hands are you making him fold that beat you. Honestly I would play AT this way and I could see Axhh playing the hand this way, as well. My guess is you could have got more value from his 98 suited by checking the turn and calling the smallish bet he would put out on the river I see this quite a bit in this certain tourney. Just my two cents
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Re: Using Position To Turn Over Tide of War

Postby newbie » Wed May 21, 2008 2:45 pm

if you can see Ahxh play this way, then why do you advocate coldcalling? so you wont get pushed off by an all-in?

flop: bet reraise call
turn: check checl
river: bet call

wldnt that river call be a bad call if he let's say has Ahxh. The raise on the flop wld have been 'compensating', just that now we've gained control of the pot, right? This is quite a concept that I myself am not very familiar with, so hearing your insights are wonderful.
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Re: Using Position To Turn Over Tide of War

Postby vaevictis » Wed May 21, 2008 6:21 pm

it depends Charles.

Raising flop and floating flop are both good moves you can use.

Personally i dislike turning my showdown-value hands into a bluff on flop. think about what you are missing out when you are ahead and have value, and what you lose when you are way behind. When you bluff raise and face a shove with AX (likely AK which is the worse hand he can shove with), he still has considerable equity on turn and river. Look at the flop again, this is a board which a wide range of hands (draws/overcards/pairs) would overshove if you raise flop bet.

If you are comfortable playing multistreet poker on turn and river, then of course floating is fine.

Just take note of betsizing and balance with all your other plays with other hands in the same situation.
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Re: Using Position To Turn Over Tide of War

Postby Belousov » Thu May 22, 2008 6:16 am

As vaevictis stated you have a hand with decent showdown value and do you really what to get it all in here, on the flop, at this stage of the tournament, when essentially your best case scenario is two overcards and a flush draw. I know i don't like getting it in with top pair essentially and weak kicker. Also, and I think this was the point of the article, the hero is in position which makes floating this flop more profitable then being hyper aggressive, at least over an extended period of time.
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