Did I played the hand badly?

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Did I played the hand badly?

Postby MaTaKazer » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:16 pm

Full Tilt - $0.05 NL RUSH - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com

UTG+1: $1.17
Hero (MP): $4.59
MP+1: $9.61
LP: $1.17
CO: $8.22
BTN: $1.90
SB: $4.46
BB: $4.45
UTG: $3.94

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has Ah Kh

fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.15, fold, fold, CO calls $0.15, fold, SB calls $0.13, fold

Flop: ($0.50, 3 players) Ad Kd Jh
SB checks, Hero bets $0.35, CO calls $0.35, fold

Turn: ($1.20, 2 players) 2c
Hero bets $1.00, CO calls $1.00

River: ($3.20, 2 players) Qs
Hero checks, CO bets $2.15, Hero calls $2.15

CO shows Js Ts (Straight, Ace High) (PreFlop 39%, Flop 22%, Turn 14%)
Hero mucks Ah Kh (Two Pair, Aces and Kings) (PreFlop 61%, Flop 78%, Turn 86%)
CO wins $7.00


Did I played the hand badly by calling the river bet? Need some pro for hand analysis and advices. Sigh... hate people who keep drawing regardless of the bet!
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Re: Did I played the hand badly?

Postby hooligans » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:31 pm

i think (since im a newbie). you had a bad beat. just move on :D
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Re: Did I played the hand badly?

Postby chenghao » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:00 pm

This is an ok play

PreFlop put in more , 3x bb doesn't work well in 5NL

put in at least 4 x bb or more to abuse those who play fit and fold ( on the flop)'

put in less then 4 bb to abuse those who fold often i guess preflop.

on the Flop , u bet for value , u expect value from a pair , flush drawers , lower 2 pairs .

Turn blanked , so the range you were ahead of , you are still ahead.

River , the flush drawers missed , the lower 2 pairs are still behind , only those AT , KT , JT would peel light hit their gut shots.

its ok to check for pot control and to induce a bluff from flush drawers who would bet river in order to win the pot. you could get value from lower 2 pairs. You were already behind set of whatever. Take note of this sort of play , most micro players would use the same line in the same situation.

like for this villian : CCPF (cold calls preflop ) to call you down with bottom pair. raises with Rivered straight.
so next time u have like a TP kind of hand , instead of just 3/4 pot , bet a full pot or overbet the pot to get the maximum value from him
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Re: Did I played the hand badly?

Postby MaTaKazer » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:55 pm

hooligans wrote:i think (since im a newbie). you had a bad beat. just move on :D

I keep getting sucked out by nonsense plays.. bad beats are okay, its poker. It's damn frustrating when coupled with bad plays and then getting sucked out. I seems to keep getting bad beats when I play a big pot. When I get Kings PF, I run into Aces. When I hold aces, it get cracked...
chenghao wrote:This is an ok play

PreFlop put in more , 3x bb doesn't work well in 5NL

put in at least 4 x bb or more to abuse those who play fit and fold ( on the flop)'

put in less then 4 bb to abuse those who fold often i guess preflop.

on the Flop , u bet for value , u expect value from a pair , flush drawers , lower 2 pairs .

Turn blanked , so the range you were ahead of , you are still ahead.

River , the flush drawers missed , the lower 2 pairs are still behind , only those AT , KT , JT would peel light hit their gut shots.

its ok to check for pot control and to induce a bluff from flush drawers who would bet river in order to win the pot. you could get value from lower 2 pairs. You were already behind set of whatever. Take note of this sort of play , most micro players would use the same line in the same situation.

like for this villian : CCPF (cold calls preflop ) to call you down with bottom pair. raises with Rivered straight.
so next time u have like a TP kind of hand , instead of just 3/4 pot , bet a full pot or overbet the pot to get the maximum value from him

Thank you for the inputs, but can you elaborate on the last part? "Take note of this sort of play , most micro players would use the same line in the same situation" Also, why would making a pot size bet = extracting maximum value? Or did you mean only do so on a board that is draw heavy?

Maybe it's because it's microstakes... so I tend to play tight. Seems to be going on well except when I go tilt and lost the discipline when I get nonsense play coupled with bad beats. Needa work on that. :!:
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Re: Did I played the hand badly?

Postby chenghao » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:37 am

MaTaKazer wrote:
hooligans wrote:i think (since im a newbie). you had a bad beat. just move on :D

I keep getting sucked out by nonsense plays.. bad beats are okay, its poker. It's damn frustrating when coupled with bad plays and then getting sucked out. I seems to keep getting bad beats when I play a big pot. When I get Kings PF, I run into Aces. When I hold aces, it get cracked...
chenghao wrote:This is an ok play

PreFlop put in more , 3x bb doesn't work well in 5NL

put in at least 4 x bb or more to abuse those who play fit and fold ( on the flop)'

put in less then 4 bb to abuse those who fold often i guess preflop.

on the Flop , u bet for value , u expect value from a pair , flush drawers , lower 2 pairs .

Turn blanked , so the range you were ahead of , you are still ahead.

River , the flush drawers missed , the lower 2 pairs are still behind , only those AT , KT , JT would peel light hit their gut shots.

its ok to check for pot control and to induce a bluff from flush drawers who would bet river in order to win the pot. you could get value from lower 2 pairs. You were already behind set of whatever. Take note of this sort of play , most micro players would use the same line in the same situation.

like for this villian : CCPF (cold calls preflop ) to call you down with bottom pair. raises with Rivered straight.
so next time u have like a TP kind of hand , instead of just 3/4 pot , bet a full pot or overbet the pot to get the maximum value from him

Thank you for the inputs, but can you elaborate on the last part? "Take note of this sort of play , most micro players would use the same line in the same situation" Also, why would making a pot size bet = extracting maximum value? Or did you mean only do so on a board that is draw heavy?

Maybe it's because it's microstakes... so I tend to play tight. Seems to be going on well except when I go tilt and lost the discipline when I get nonsense play coupled with bad beats. Needa work on that. :!:


like for example , when he has AK of spade , and he misses the flop ( no A or K on flop ) he will fold every single time , doing what we call a fit or fold strategy.
so say he 3bets preflop , and you range him to be AA KK or AKs, which are the only hands he 3bet preflop with. On the Flop he checks after you checks. So on the turn you bet out knowing he has AKs and missed bcos he would have AA or KK.

Pot sized bet = extracting maximum value cos he will call any.
judging by his play , he is either
1) call you down all 3 streets with bottom pair (uber fish)
2) call you down till river to hit a 2 pair(uber peeler)

so if flop you have top pair , he has bottom pair , if you 3 pot size bet all 3 post flop streets , you would earn more from his "peeling" then you can comfortable fold to any raise on the R cos you know if he raise river , he would have straight and above.

by note taking , i mean taking note of the opponent's tendencies

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/mi ... dr-332863/

part of http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69/mi ... ds-430489/

Here are my top ten favorite one-line notes to have:

1. Will stack off with TP/TK (or worse).

Usually, unless you have reason to believe this player is otherwise competent AND you saw him stack off with TP/TK against a super-LAG opponent, if you see a player stack off once on AQ on a board of QT7T4, he's going to be the kind of player that consistently overvalues top pair. These are the players you want to play with, especially with speculative hands and big pairs, especially if they play a full stack. (Obviously, to somebody playing 20-25 BB shortstack, TP/TK is the nuts; that should be something you instinctively know.)

Guys that will stack off with top pair are guys you want in pots with.

2. Refuses to let go of a big pocket pair.

You've seen these types. They raised with AA and got called, and the board ran out QJ8Q9, and although they stop betting or raising after the flop, they call pot-sized bets from a tight opponent on the turn and river for most or all of their stack.

Especially if you see this from a notably tight guy--there are quite a few 6/5 type players out there that love their big pairs and won't let them go when they pick one up--these are guys you should be willing to overpay a little to see a flop with any pair. They're setmining plutonium, because (1) they usually have a big pair when they raise a pot preflop, and (2) when they do have a big pair, when you make your set you're almost always going to stack them. (Usually they'll just get it in with you on the flop.)

Again, remember, if you see them do this once, go all the way with KK when the board and the action makes it pretty obvious KK's no good, note it and act accordingly until you see them do otherwise. Usually if they do it once, they'll keep doing it.

3. Overpays to draw.

This is another of my favorite type of player. You'll raise 3xBB from the cutoff, they'll call in the big blind with JT. The flop comes down Q54, giving you top pair (let's suppose you had KQ) and him a draw. He checks. You bet 6 BB into the 6.5BB pot. He calls. The turn is a harmless 7. He checks. You bet 14 BB into the 18.5BB pot. He calls. The river is the K. He now wakes up and bets 28 BB into the 46.5BB pot. You're probably beaten, but you have a good bluff catcher, so you call and he shows you his flush.

Take a note! This guy way overpays to try and hit a flush. In the future, when you find a situation against him when it's likely he's drawing, you can just fire pot-sized bets and expect him to call; and not only that, but if his draw does come in, you can shut down with confidence unless you have a monster or a good redraw.

Note that these guys also don't raise their draws; they just call and call, gambling, playing the slot machine, waiting to see whether they strike it big. It's a win-win situation when you play your top pair hands against these guys, really; they're happy the one time in three or four that their draw makes it, and you're happy because on average you're taking them to the cleaners by overcharging them to draw.

4. Addicted to the flush.

This is a habit I've noticed among a small but not insignificant subsection of uNL players: They pay way too much attention to the flush. This has three important ramifications:

1. They play too much suited junk like J9, trying to hit a flush. (They ESPECIALLY play ANY suited ace for almost any price.)

2. They either overpay to draw (see note #3 above) or jam their flush draws too much, making it easy for you to pick off their semibluffs. Mostly the flush addicts just call and overpay to draw, because they want to make their flush before they start betting or raising.

3. They're easy to bluff out of pots when the third flush card hits and they don't have the flush draw. They tend to assume you play the way they do, so you must have the flush if you bet at such an obviously scary card. I've seen flush addicts fold to a turn bet when the third flush card comes down and then actually flash top pair/good kicker! You know, they're showing you how smart they are, you can't value town them with your 'obvious' flush.

5. Once he's limped, he will almost always call the raise.

These guys are just ATMs for you, especially when they're sitting on your right. I'll just quote Bobby Hoff on the subject, one of my favorite quotes from HoCG:

Quote:
For instance, I can think of a couple of players at the Commerce who, if they were sitting on my right, would limp in almost every pot, and call the raise 80 to 90 percent of the time. Those guys, if I have a king and a queen, I love my hand.
Raise these guys with your merely pretty-good hands (king-jack is plenty good) and expect to be called. There are two subsections of these guys (and you should have a note as to which a particular opponent is): The ones that fold to your c-bet if the flop misses them, and the ones that don't. Bluff the former group relentlessly; make your hand and take the latter group on the trolley to Value Town.

6. Talker.

Guys that talk in the chat box, especially the ones that complain about other players being luckboxes or belittle opponents that just lost (or won) big pots against them, are almost invariably aggrodonks.

There's a minor art form to relieving these guys of their money. If you bet right at them and they have nothing, a lot of them will fold (or make one bluff and give up afterward.) Check to them, let them bet, then raise their bet, and suddenly it becomes a challenge to their masculinity. They'll reraise. You get their stack. They usually swear at you and then leave the table.

Talkers don't always talk, but if you've seen him talk before, he's probably the sort that will go after you with air if you suggest, by raising his bet, that you might have a bigger male sexual/excretory organ than his.

Now let's get into some slightly more nuanced tendencies you should be paying attention to.

7. When he flops a set, he...

J. Random uNL Player does the same thing almost every time when he flops a set. Usually, it's check-raise OOP and call flop, bet or raise turn IP, but some opponents will do something different. But the point is, 90% of the time a Villain will do the same thing every time he flops a set. So the first time you see him show down a set, take a note of what he did after flopping it. He'll probably do it again. This will save you a lot of money if you play with him frequently.

8. When he flops a good draw, he...

J. Random uNL Player handles his good draws in the same manner 80% of the time, and you should take note of what that manner is as soon as you see it. Either he jams them (the ones that jam them are usually either superLAGs or actual good players, so they bear more attention), or they try to check/call to see more cards (in which case see note #3, 'overpays to draw'.) Players that habitually jam their draws are players you can feel better about getting it in on the flop with hands like overpairs or even TP/GK.

9. When he makes a tiny bet or raise...

It's another thing you see a lot at uNL: You'll raise 3xBB from MP, the button calls, and the big blind calls. Then the flop is A4J or whatever, and the big blind donkbets 1BB or 2BB into the 9.5BB pot.

What's it mean?

Usually it means one of two things:

1. He has a middling or drawing hand and is trying to see more cards and/or reach showdown cheap. In this example, he has a couple hearts or perhaps king-jack. These guys, you make a raise big enough to price out the draw and they usually fold. (You can do this with or without a hand, notice.)

2. He has a monster and he's trying to induce a raise. The first time you see a guy make the minbet, get raised and then come over the top with a big reraise, make a note of it: This guy likes to minbet his big hands to try and induce a raise. He'll almost always prove to do it habitually. This kind of play is a bad mistake, you should notice, because it gives your drawing hands, sometimes all the way down to simply a pair+backdoor draw, a good price to try and draw out on him my just calling.

10. Raises in early position too much.

This is, to me, an amazing phenomenon at uNL: Some players raise more in EP than they do in LP. I think it's because they've read books that say they should usually raise when they're first in, and they want to be active players... and you'll be 'first in' much more often in UTG+1 than you will in the CO. So they pick up queen-ten suited or something in the front, and they raise, because they think they have good fold equity. They're being aggressive!

This takes a little bit of time to pick up on, but it usually will manifest itself in as few as 100 or 200 hands with a given player. If you're paying some attention, you'll notice when a guy's preflop raises are skewed toward early position. These are guys you can reraise from behind--they're especially nice for squeeze raises if someone else in front of you calls first--and win a lot of money from.
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