Crafty villain with crazy play

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Crafty villain with crazy play

Postby g_oxidizer » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:03 pm

I have 300+ hands with Villain (17/15) and it started out pretty well.
Put him on AK,AQ,AA,KK.
How would you have played this?

PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: $57.40
Hero (SB): $34.64
BB: $25.00
UTG: $25.00
MP: $38.19
CO: $34.49

Hero posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has Jc Js

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.75, BB raises to $2.50, Hero calls $1.75

Flop: ($5.00, 2 players) 7s 3h Td
Hero checks, BB bets $2.99, Hero calls $2.99

Turn: ($10.98, 2 players) 4h
Hero checks, BB bets $8.54, Hero calls $8.54

River: ($28.06, 2 players) 2h
Hero checks, BB bets $10.97 and is all-in, Hero calls $10.97
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Re: Crafty villain with crazy play

Postby chenghao » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:54 pm

PF it looks like a resteal attempt , flatting there is ok to induce / not throw away JJ to a 5bet shove.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

19,800 games 0.044 secs 450,000 games/sec

Board: 7s 3h Td
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 65.111% 65.11% 00.00% 12892 0.00 { KK+, AQs+ }
Hand 1: 34.889% 34.89% 00.00% 6908 0.00 { JcJs }

you are a 2:1 dog vs that range on that flop

if against this villian , when he 3bets , his range is so defined , then give up if u miss your set lor

If u plan to call the flop , you believe you are ahead of the AK and AQ and want him to continue barreling.
check calling it is an ok play.

if you note that his a once and done player , then give up on the turn.

if he can be induced to barrel with air then call lor.

given no notes and somehow i am able to so narrowly define his range , i would solely set mine with JJ.
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Re: Crafty villain with crazy play

Postby axel » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:28 am

You should be looking at his 3bet% in the BB and his fold to 4bet%, rather than just VPIP and PFR. Most often, you'll be surprised by how light people 3bet in blind vs blind situation, even for a 17/15.

Readless I'll check/call flop and check/fold turn.
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Re: Crafty villain with crazy play

Postby g_oxidizer » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:10 am

Was thinking the same way as you Chenghao and thought it was AK or triple
Barreling air. Turns out, the results were annoying donkish.

Villain had 8h 10h.
Cry me a river. FML!
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Re: Crafty villain with crazy play

Postby slkia » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:22 am

g_oxidizer wrote:Was thinking the same way as you Chenghao and thought it was AK or triple
Barreling air. Turns out, the results were annoying donkish.

Villain had 8h 10h.
Cry me a river. FML!


wats so donkish abt villian...perfectly standard play for him.

ignoring the fact u didnt post any stats abt his 3bet and 4bet and stats on sb vs bb, fold to steal etc..

after u cc flop, donk bet turn, fold to raise, what hands do u beat that..... can call ur donk bet AND bet out if u check on river
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Re: Crafty villain with crazy play

Postby chenghao » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:12 am

he only has 300 + hands ,stats on 3bet , ats , bb vs sb , fold to steal etc would be useful indeed. However , stats on like 4bet would be skewed as the number of hands are too low and wouldn't be a good representation
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Re: Crafty villain with crazy play

Postby slkia » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:22 am

chenghao wrote:he only has 300 + hands ,stats on 3bet , ats , bb vs sb , fold to steal etc would be useful indeed. However , stats on like 4bet would be skewed as the number of hands are too low and wouldn't be a good representation


its obvious my statement was a generalisation on the "informative" stats

but if u wanna nitpick....ok lets proceed...

u are looking at stats as it should be textbook style....

how about looking at them inter and co-related

e.g. 3 bet of 3%, fold to 4 bet 100% where number of fold to 4 bet only = 2....

is this sample size of 2 hands too small? yes under normal circumstances....but doesnt it also tell u things like the fact u CAN POSSIBLY make villian fold QQ, AQ, AK with a 4bet....given his 3bet range is relatively tight and yet he folds to 4bet...

would u not want to 4bet if u know he will fold these hands? u are only 50/50 to this range...if u were to keep it at 3% 3bet range and remove AQo u are behind with 47/53
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Re: Crafty villain with crazy play

Postby g_oxidizer » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:29 am

I'll look up his stats later but the one thing I don't get is he played so aggressively with top pair weak kicker at flop, hoping to draw a weak flush at turn. I still don't see how this is reasonable play... lol guess I'm too thick-headed to understand his/her logic.
I wouldnt mind losing to pockets or even a set but not this...
Hindsight: should have 3-bet or shove :p
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Re: Crafty villain with crazy play

Postby slkia » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:30 am

chenghao wrote:PF it looks like a resteal attempt , flatting there is ok to induce / not throw away JJ to a 5bet shove.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

19,800 games 0.044 secs 450,000 games/sec

Board: 7s 3h Td
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 65.111% 65.11% 00.00% 12892 0.00 { KK+, AQs+ }
Hand 1: 34.889% 34.89% 00.00% 6908 0.00 { JcJs }

you are a 2:1 dog vs that range on that flop

if against this villian , when he 3bets , his range is so defined , then give up if u miss your set lor

If u plan to call the flop , you believe you are ahead of the AK and AQ and want him to continue barreling.
check calling it is an ok play.

if you note that his a once and done player , then give up on the turn.

if he can be induced to barrel with air then call lor.

given no notes and somehow i am able to so narrowly define his range , i would solely set mine with JJ.


lets nitpick....

1) so if u think he airs u will call turn? then if an over card drops....he shoves river....will u call? bear in mind river call is 1:4

2) if he checks behind on turn, what do u do on the river to a blank, an over card and a scare card???

3) have u effectively narrowed his range thru each street or are u just taking a course of action and praying ur read is right?

4) flatting pre to induce? what course of action to take on later streets???
if u beat villian, how many streets of value can u get out of it versus if villian beats u, how many streets of value will he get out of ur JJ??
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Re: Crafty villain with crazy play

Postby slkia » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:41 am

g_oxidizer wrote:I'll look up his stats later but the one thing I don't get is he played so aggressively with top pair weak kicker at flop, hoping to draw a weak flush at turn. I still don't see how this is reasonable play... lol guess I'm too thick-headed to understand his/her logic.
I wouldnt mind losing to pockets or even a set but not this...
Hindsight: should have 3-bet or shove :p


dont shove.....4 bet light pre is fine....

donk bet flop or turn is better tho, imo

from villians standpt...

betting at flop is reasonable, trying to take it down.

betting out at turn may not be, i would check turn and call your river bet or if u check river i will value bet for small pockets to call
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Re: Crafty villain with crazy play

Postby chenghao » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:04 pm

slkia wrote:
chenghao wrote:he only has 300 + hands ,stats on 3bet , ats , bb vs sb , fold to steal etc would be useful indeed. However , stats on like 4bet would be skewed as the number of hands are too low and wouldn't be a good representation


its obvious my statement was a generalisation on the "informative" stats

but if u wanna nitpick....ok lets proceed...

u are looking at stats as it should be textbook style....

how about looking at them inter and co-related

e.g. 3 bet of 3%, fold to 4 bet 100% where number of fold to 4 bet only = 2....

is this sample size of 2 hands too small? yes under normal circumstances....but doesnt it also tell u things like the fact u CAN POSSIBLY make villian fold QQ, AQ, AK with a 4bet....given his 3bet range is relatively tight and yet he folds to 4bet...

would u not want to 4bet if u know he will fold these hands? u are only 50/50 to this range...if u were to keep it at 3% 3bet range and remove AQo u are behind with 47/53


and if he 5 bets we have have to toss the rest, we can only call with AA and KK ? Is it profitable to 4bet there or to flat a 3bet resteal ?

The more hands there are , the better it would be. If u would be playing alot against this guy , i guess the only purpose to 4bet there is to show how aggressive can be , but i would only do that against a reg who i know would fold and then i would only do it with a junk hand that has no value in calling. 4 betting there with JJ is silly imho. Thats just how i play and thats how it fits my entire game plan , so it really is up to individual + their history with opponent
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Re: Crafty villain with crazy play

Postby chenghao » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:15 pm

slkia wrote:
lets nitpick....

1) so if u think he airs u will call turn? then if an over card drops....he shoves river....will u call? bear in mind river call is 1:4

2) if he checks behind on turn, what do u do on the river to a blank, an over card and a scare card???

3) have u effectively narrowed his range thru each street or are u just taking a course of action and praying ur read is right?

4) flatting pre to induce? what course of action to take on later streets???
if u beat villian, how many streets of value can u get out of it versus if villian beats u, how many streets of value will he get out of ur JJ??


well i guess i would look @ his river AF , if its less than 2 , i would fold @ that point , if its more than 2, i would call , if its about 2 , either looks profitable to me , never do that maths though.

2) probably depends a lot on his AF , if his af is 1 - 2 , a great deal of his strategy probably involves checking back , so i would probably lead to get value from a TX , straight draw , 88 and 99 type of hand. Without history i would check to control the pot i guess.

3) i guess i would look @ his cbet of both flop and turn , if the flop is 100 , turn is like 20 , i would float him a lot IP and lead into him a lot OOP

4) yes , this would probably be the case for most hands i think have showdown value on a blind vs blind battle. action on later streets are villain dependent
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Re: Crafty villain with crazy play

Postby axel » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:27 pm

Blind vs blind dynamic is another thing to consider in this hand. IMO it's fine to stack off with JJ vs a villian who is not a total nit. Of course you shouldn't simply 4bet shove, just make it $6-$6.50 and call the shove.
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Re: Crafty villain with crazy play

Postby g_oxidizer » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:52 pm

In blinds position:
VPIP: 15%(20/134), 13% (17/134)
PF>> 3-bet: 13% (11/87), Fold-3b: 100% (6/6) , ATS: 30% (6/20), Fold to steal: 83% (20/24)

AF: 5.67/0/1/0

Anymore stats needed?
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