What Would You Do? Big Draw or Drawing Dead

Mike aka suitedpairs29 is a very skillful both ONLINE & LIVE poker player. He is sharing his poker experience with the folks here.

What Would You Do? Big Draw or Drawing Dead

Postby suitedpairs29 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:09 pm

Scenario:

You are playing a 1/2 cash game at a friend of a friend of a friends place (you know what im talking about, the one with all the smoke and ah bengs but you dont care coz they have more fishes than the great barrier reef) and have built yourself a nice stack, around 550SGD. Its a very loose game with alot of weak players and you decide that you can play alot of hands in position. There is a limp in early position and a raise to 10SGD in middle position by a player you have no reads on who has 850SGD and you decide to make a call in the cutoff with [As] [6s] . BB and limper both call and pot is now 41SGD. The flop comes [2s] [3s] [Ac] and the BB and limper check to the initial raiser who bets out 25SGD. You have a top pair and the nut flush draw and decide to raise it up to 65SGD. Both the BB and limper fold and the raiser calls. Turn is [3h] and he checks to you. Pot is now 171SGD and you bet out for 100SGD and you are snap check raised all-in. Do you call with your big draw or are you drawing dead? Question is ...

What Would You Do?
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Re: What Would You Do? Big Draw or Drawing Dead

Postby felixleong » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:29 pm

Call and pray to get lucky? LOL
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Re: What Would You Do? Big Draw or Drawing Dead

Postby suitedpairs29 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:41 pm

felixleong wrote:Call and pray to get lucky? LOL


A legitimate response. LOL. Essentially you are telling me that you know that you are beat. Most of the time, I see that people cannot seem to get away from the hand. Would you have played the hand differently, discounting the fact that might you fold preflop of course
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Re: What Would You Do? Big Draw or Drawing Dead

Postby felixleong » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:41 pm

hm... i think it looks fine hehe
But maybe once in a while I'll make a special move and shove on the flop with my TPWK + nut flushdraw to throw my opponents off guard or send them into confusion haha, this is what makes live games fun right? ^_^
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Re: What Would You Do? Big Draw or Drawing Dead

Postby ohboy » Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:27 pm

this is an all in on the flop hand

if it advances to the turn, you're no longer a monster draw. I woulda just called the flop I think. Pot is too small to go all in, so try to keep it small, knowing the turn is where you will have to throw your hand away most of the time.

Also, why the turn bet?

You're no longer drawing to the nuts. Discount the fact that he check raised you, what if he just called, and you hit your flush on the river? Are you going to shove there? If he doesn't have a full house, is he going to call that shove anyway? If you miss your flush, did you intend to triple barrel?
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Re: What Would You Do? Big Draw or Drawing Dead

Postby Belousov » Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:42 pm

you are calling 375 into into a pot worth, approximately 600. You can't really be drawing dead here unless he is overshoving with quads, which is some serious 9th level thinking. In my mind the overshove shouts AJ+ or 45 the former situation, assuming he has no spades, you have 9 outs for the win and as many as 11, or as few as 3, outs for the chop. In the latter, you have 11 outs, neither spot warrants a call here. I have seen some pretty sick moves, like this, with a weak ace, though. I would have c/c the turn to control the pot, the flop play seems pretty standard.
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Re: What Would You Do? Big Draw or Drawing Dead

Postby vaevictis » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:30 pm

dont like turn bet. Can't afford a checkraise.


As played, do a pstove analysis, input a range of hands he may have, calculate pot odds vs equity, and the mathematical decision will be there. Given deep stack, calling the all-in on the turn is always a mathematical mistake I believe if u do pstove and weigh it aganist your equity vs potodds.
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Re: What Would You Do? Big Draw or Drawing Dead

Postby felixleong » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:54 pm

One of the problem with this hand is that hor... dun have read on the opponent.
Which makes the turn soooo hard to play for me.

In generally Big Raise or All In means big hands so things really look bad on the turn, but still I do love to gamble it up and I feel better seeing what killed me hahaha

If there was reads given instead, I might want to value bet on the turn against passive opponents, knowing that a Check-Raise clearly has me beat and makes my fold easier and at peace.

Against Aggressive/Tricky players I would tend towards pot control and try to take the free river card by checking the turn, playing it safe cause we really fear his disastrous check raise. I would be trying to make a nut flush on the river to see his actions, which is probably to call villain's river bet out or to value bet river if he checks.

With a weak Ace pair the general objective for me is to quickly go to showdown cheaply

^0^
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Re: What Would You Do? Big Draw or Drawing Dead

Postby Nicefingers » Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:07 am

He raised with 34 of clubs/diamonds and got lucky with the 3 to make a set.
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Re: What Would You Do? Big Draw or Drawing Dead

Postby DM101 » Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:59 pm

Bet on the turn was a risky move. Both of you were deep stack and he seemed to know that you were on a draw somehow. He made such a move probably wanna stop you from hitting you outs.
Hinting you : PAY TO SEE CARD !!
Folding probably is a good option then.
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Re: What Would You Do? Big Draw or Drawing Dead

Postby Belousov » Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:03 pm

What do you guys think of a check/calling the turn? He has some showdown value, I really prefer pot control here. Your thoughts? I am never calling the push though, the math definitely marks it as -ev.
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Re: What Would You Do? Big Draw or Drawing Dead

Postby rhcpdcfc » Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:27 pm

a definite check on e turn w position when board pairs the 3. cant call the check raise with such a deep stack. whose hand was this lol
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Re: What Would You Do? Big Draw or Drawing Dead

Postby laserspy » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:07 am

IMHO, if it was me I would have done a past hands read on the opponent, assuming that the opponent is a weak "play for fun" poker player and doesn't change gear, sticks to one style of playing.

From there I could narrow down his hand probably a A/3 and not 4/5, as that kind of hand doesn't warrant a 5xBB raise preflop from mid.

With 2 pairs on the flop (Assuming he has A & 3), he only loses out to 4/5 (Straight), so he made a 60% pot sized raise to "test water" to see who is having a 4/5 (Straight). You re-raised his bet, so he had a impression somehow in his mind that you on a nut straight.

The turn brings 3, which probably gave him the boat. With a boat on the turn, he was having the nuts of that particular game, therefore the checkraise. As he is confident of beating you even though you had the 4/5.

I could even narrow down his hand to 2/3, but with that hand it really does not warrant a 5xBB raise pre-flop, especially from mid position.

So if I was in Mike's position, I would have folded, as the odds are against me, even if I completed the draw, I would probably be drawing to the 2nd best.

That's my humble analysis of that game, give opinions :D
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Re: What Would You Do? Big Draw or Drawing Dead

Postby Deepkiller » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:53 am

i narrow his hand to 45s ,A2s or A3s , 22 or 33
he raised half pot at flop then called yr reraise instead of reraising u - hiding hand str? possible 2 pairs or set
now at the turn he checked, u raised and he snap call with all in
his play hints a fullhouse.
your turn bet getting reraised is the biggest hint that your hand is beaten
correct action - fold especially 3 out of 4 times you only have a pair of Aces and when you get yr flush, you are still nt the nuts.
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